Redwall Abbey

Brian Jacques' Works (Spoilers) => History, Legends and Myths => Topic started by: alderbowbeast on November 20, 2014, 03:39:41 AM

Title: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: alderbowbeast on November 20, 2014, 03:39:41 AM
The world of Redwall is a vast one indeed, however, there is more there than meets the eye.  Allow me to introduce to you the Great War.  This war has been raging since before the books began in Lord Brocktree.  There are two sides to this war, the Wild Cat Kingdom in the North and the Badger Kingdom in the South.  The beginning of the end of the war actually occurs in Lord Brocktree.  Allow me to remind readers that all of this is purely speculative based on what I have read in the books.
King Mortspear was the last ruler of the Highland Kingdoms (aka the Northern Kingdom).  He sensed his son, Ungatt's, ambitions to rule.  Mortspear feared for his throne and life and convinced Ungatt that his destiny lay in capturing the mountain fortress of Salamadastron, one of the nothern-most strongholds of the Badger kingdom.  As we know from Lord Brocktree Ungatt failed to do this, dying in the attempt.  In his urge to push south, Mortspear sent his other son, Verdauga, to take an army and push south into Mossflower.  Thanks to the information provided in The Legend of Luke and Mossflowerwe know Verdauga was successful and held the area for his entire life.  Upon Vergauda's death Mortspear was more than likely dead leaving Verdauga as the sole heir to the empoir.  However, with the wildcat's death, along with Tsarmina's defeat at the hands of Martin the Highland Kingdom officially met its end.  This makes Squire Julian Gingivere from Redwall the last heir to the Northern Empire.
The breaking of the Northern Empire leads to the spread of vermin and the creation of other vermin kingdoms such as the pirate kingdom of Gabool or the wandering vermin hoard found in The Outcast of Redwall.  Cluny the Scourge's army is the last remnant of the once mighty empire of the North.  However, the next empire would spring from the South in the form of yet another cat kingdom, namely that of Malkarkis.  With the defeat of that fledgling empire the way was cleared for the mighty badger lords.  With the defeat of Malkarkis it was a simple matter to fight new growing kingdoms or the odd pirate.  However, no vermin kingdom could contend with the might of the badgers and their allies in Redwall.  Towards the end of the books the focus shifts from great wars to adventures, explorations of history, and the gathering of knowledge long forgotten.  By the end of the Redwall Series with The Rouge Crew the world is shifting into a renaissance period under the rule of the Badger Empire.

Alder-Recorder of Redwall and Mossflower Country
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: The Skarzs on November 20, 2014, 04:21:05 AM
Say whaaaaaaaat? :D Wow, did you get this all for yourself? This is a really cool idea!
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Søren on November 20, 2014, 06:17:39 AM
Can defiantly see this happening!
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Delthion on November 20, 2014, 07:49:31 PM
Wow! That was amazing!

And Soren, you are defiantly seeing that happening, I think you mean definitely.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Søren on November 20, 2014, 10:08:58 PM
Quote from: Delthion on November 20, 2014, 07:49:31 PM
Wow! That was amazing!

And Soren, you are defiantly seeing that happening, I think you mean definitely.
WHAT THE HECK WAS WRONG WITH MY AUTO CORRECT LAST NIGHT!!ERG!
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: SilentSam on November 20, 2014, 11:01:31 PM
Quote from: Soren the Warrior on November 20, 2014, 10:08:58 PM
Quote from: Delthion on November 20, 2014, 07:49:31 PM
Wow! That was amazing!

And Soren, you are defiantly seeing that happening, I think you mean definitely.
WHAT THE HECK WAS WRONG WITH MY AUTO CORRECT LAST NIGHT!!ERG!
;D Hehe...  ;D
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: alderbowbeast on November 22, 2014, 02:10:33 AM
There is a reason I sign off as "Alder-Recorder of Redwall and Mossflower Country"
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: The Skarzs on November 22, 2014, 04:27:44 AM
Awesome.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on December 13, 2014, 04:47:23 AM
THE BADGERS STARTED IT!!! That's all I have to say...
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Søren on December 14, 2014, 05:18:52 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on December 13, 2014, 04:47:23 AM
THE BADGERS STARTED IT!!! That's all I have to say...
NO THEY DIDNT YOU FRAMED US!! ;)
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: MeadowR on December 14, 2014, 05:33:17 PM
I'll give this a proper read through when I am without headache! What I did read, it sounds like a very interesting theory and gives the story even more depth. :)
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Tam and Martin on December 15, 2014, 12:50:10 AM
Wow...... just wow.......


Where did you get all those awesome ideas?  :D

That's amazing!!!!
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: willruth on December 28, 2014, 09:02:25 AM
Interesting idea, can you quote sources from all the books you got this idea from!

Oh and I thoroughly believe in this idea, and have been thinking of something quite like it for some time!

P.S I think the plot is good for a time-warp role-play thread!
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Hickory on December 28, 2014, 06:51:55 PM
Wow.

But...

Cluny's army roughly numbered 100. On the other hand, Ferhago the assasin's army numbered well over 500. So how could Cluny be a survivor, when his army is older than Ferhago's but is smaller. Thinking about the amount of good fighting animals in mossflower, if rallied, then Cluny could have easily been defeated on his way to redwall. How could he have survived for that long? Granted, he traveled by horsecart, but still, it maes much more sense for ferhago's army to be the original from the north.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: James Gryphon on December 28, 2014, 07:01:10 PM
Salamandastron took place before Redwall, chronologically. Ferahgo the Assassin's Corpsemakers numbered several thousand. Cluny's horde started out at five hundred, and was over six hundred at its peak:
Quote from: RedwallNow he rode on the back of the hay wagon with his five hundred followers, a mighty army of rats: sewer rats, tavern rats, water rats, dockside rats.
QuoteThey'd obtained over a hundred new recruits, mainly rats but with a good scattering of ferrets and weasels, and the odd stoat.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: alderbowbeast on December 29, 2014, 05:40:30 AM
Quote from: Sagetip, the hare on December 28, 2014, 06:51:55 PM
Wow.

But...

Cluny's army roughly numbered 100. On the other hand, Ferhago the assasin's army numbered well over 500. So how could Cluny be a survivor, when his army is older than Ferhago's but is smaller. Thinking about the amount of good fighting animals in mossflower, if rallied, then Cluny could have easily been defeated on his way to redwall. How could he have survived for that long? Granted, he traveled by horsecart, but still, it maes much more sense for ferhago's army to be the original from the north.

I'm not saying that Cluny and his army are part of the original army but more than likely the last descendants of the Northern kingdom.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Hickory on December 29, 2014, 05:05:01 PM
Quote from: James Gryphon on December 28, 2014, 07:01:10 PM
Salamandastron took place before Redwall, chronologically. Ferahgo the Assassin's Corpsemakers numbered several thousand. Cluny's horde started out at five hundred, and was over six hundred at its peak:
Quote from: RedwallNow he rode on the back of the hay wagon with his five hundred followers, a mighty army of rats: sewer rats, tavern rats, water rats, dockside rats.
QuoteThey'd obtained over a hundred new recruits, mainly rats but with a good scattering of ferrets and weasels, and the odd stoat.

Point taken.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Eulaliaaa! on January 18, 2015, 09:11:22 PM
Actually, Brian Jacques never said Cluny and his army were from the North. It is rumored that he was a Portuguese (spelling?) rat, but no one knows for sure. The book states that he was a bilge rat, but other than that, there is no certain information. I think Brian Jacques meant to have Cluny be a mystery, with no one knowing where he came from.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Darkenmal on January 19, 2015, 02:14:59 PM
What a fascinating theory. We should compose a compendium of the Redwall world and see what we make of it! :)
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Delthion on January 19, 2015, 06:34:36 PM
Quote from: Eulaliaaa! on January 18, 2015, 09:11:22 PM
Actually, Brian Jacques never said Cluny and his army were from the North. It is rumored that he was a Portuguese (spelling?) rat, but no one knows for sure. The book states that he was a bilge rat, but other than that, there is no certain information. I think Brian Jacques meant to have Cluny be a mystery, with no one knowing where he came from.

He knows that, it's just supposed to be a fun awesome thing!
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on January 22, 2015, 12:26:16 PM
Quote from: Darkenmal on January 19, 2015, 02:14:59 PM
What a fascinating theory. We should compose a compendium of the Redwall world and see what we make of it! :)

We should shouldn't we?  :)
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: LT Sandpaw on January 22, 2015, 04:40:02 PM

Yup someone else get on that ;D
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Eulaliaaa! on January 22, 2015, 11:28:59 PM
I would be happy to help out if someone was to do that  :)
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Hickory on January 23, 2015, 12:10:54 AM
Same here, my extensive collection of books will help...
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Izeroth on January 24, 2015, 04:01:36 PM
 I don't think Cluny's horde or the multitude of other hordes were remnants of the empire. Firstly, they were often indisciplined and inexperienced, and I believe the books actually mention that the warlords recruited many of their soldiers from local vermin.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Delthion on January 24, 2015, 04:15:20 PM
But, Cluny could possibly be a descendant of the Cat Empire, and the vermin just random groups of bandits that he recruited along the way.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Eulaliaaa! on January 24, 2015, 04:22:42 PM
Wasn't the Cat Empire in the North? The book never states that Cluny and his band came from the North, it says no one knew where he was from and it was rumored that he was a Portuguese rat. Some of his followers could possibly be descendants of the Cat Empire, but not Cluny himself.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Delthion on January 24, 2015, 10:12:42 PM
Yes, he knows, it's all hypothetical and it would be very cool.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on January 25, 2015, 12:38:14 AM
Quote from: Eulaliaaa! on January 24, 2015, 04:22:42 PM
Wasn't the Cat Empire in the North? The book never states that Cluny and his band came from the North, it says no one knew where he was from and it was rumored that he was a Portuguese rat. Some of his followers could possibly be descendants of the Cat Empire, but not Cluny himself.

I think he came from Southsward.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Izeroth on January 25, 2015, 01:00:53 AM
 I believe it mentions that Swartt was from the South, but I don't know.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: alderbowbeast on March 10, 2015, 04:08:32 AM
Quote from: Eulaliaaa! on January 18, 2015, 09:11:22 PM
Actually, Brian Jacques never said Cluny and his army were from the North. It is rumored that he was a Portuguese (spelling?) rat, but no one knows for sure. The book states that he was a bilge rat, but other than that, there is no certain information. I think Brian Jacques meant to have Cluny be a mystery, with no one knowing where he came from.

Actually we do know that Cluny and his army were from the north based on their path of travel and the events of Redwall.  First, we know that he had never been in the area before, otherwise his name wouldn't have been a myth or one to frighten dibbuns with.  The second way we know he's from the north is because of path.  When attacking Redwall Cluny and his army camp at St. Ninians which is south of Redwall (see the map in the front of the book).  Second Cluny is quoted saying "Trail back to the west.  I think we passed a big place on the way."  We know they were following the north/south road which is revealed to only go north and south in other books.  The only way they could have passed Redwall and ended up at St. Ninians is to have been traveling from the north.

-Alder, Recorder of Redwall and Mossflower Country
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on March 10, 2015, 09:28:29 AM
Cluny might have come in the North and then he might have been defeated there, seeing how the rats hadn't marched their way to Redwall and they were in a cart, suggesting Cluny was defeated once before Redwall. He could still be a Portuguese rat that way.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Izeroth on March 15, 2015, 06:09:51 PM
Quote from: alderbowbeast on March 10, 2015, 04:08:32 AM
Quote from: Eulaliaaa! on January 18, 2015, 09:11:22 PM
Actually, Brian Jacques never said Cluny and his army were from the North. It is rumored that he was a Portuguese (spelling?) rat, but no one knows for sure. The book states that he was a bilge rat, but other than that, there is no certain information. I think Brian Jacques meant to have Cluny be a mystery, with no one knowing where he came from.

Actually we do know that Cluny and his army were from the north based on their path of travel and the events of Redwall.  First, we know that he had never been in the area before, otherwise his name wouldn't have been a myth or one to frighten dibbuns with.  The second way we know he's from the north is because of path.  When attacking Redwall Cluny and his army camp at St. Ninians which is south of Redwall (see the map in the front of the book).  Second Cluny is quoted saying "Trail back to the west.  I think we passed a big place on the way."  We know they were following the north/south road which is revealed to only go north and south in other books.  The only way they could have passed Redwall and ended up at St. Ninians is to have been traveling from the north.

-Alder, Recorder of Redwall and Mossflower Country

The book mentions, I believe, that Cluny was thought to have come from far-away jungles. Jungles don't typically grow in the North, do they?  ;)
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: LT Sandpaw on March 15, 2015, 06:43:41 PM

The book also mentions that Cluny was the foulest rat to jump from ship to shore or something like that. If he was originally a pirate he could be from basically anywhere and simply landed North of the Abbey.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Stonestripe on April 16, 2015, 02:52:17 AM
Quote from: Tam and Martin on December 15, 2014, 12:50:10 AM
Wow...... just wow.......


Where did you get all those awesome ideas?  :D

That's amazing!!!!

I have read the books quite a few times and as far as I can tell all the ideas come from the books. He conneted them in a way that really makes sense and makes for a fun thing to ponder. I would have loved reading a book that ties it all together especially adding the Eagles and Hawks that come from the highlands.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Marthimeo on September 27, 2015, 01:06:21 AM
The books do mention a lot of hints that this could have happened
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Dylan Reguba on November 01, 2015, 06:20:51 PM
QuoteHowever, the next empire would spring from the South in the form of yet another cat kingdom, namely that of Malkarkis.

I think if you read Mattimeo it says that Malkaris was a polecat. A polecat isn't a cat at all, really; it's more closely related to ferrets. (One could argue that they're the same species, but it's all rather confusing.)

Hopefully this sheds a bit of light on the discussion.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Sanddunes on September 05, 2017, 04:17:55 AM
I do like this thoery but I'm also interested in the Great Vermin War mention in Eulalia
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: The Skarzs on September 05, 2017, 04:23:06 AM
Was there one? I don't recall.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Sanddunes on September 05, 2017, 04:35:08 AM
Quote from: The Skarzs on September 05, 2017, 04:23:06 AM
Was there one? I don't recall.

Yeah It mention how Gorath's parents fought and died in the war
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Ashleg on September 05, 2017, 06:10:58 AM
With a name like that it sounds like it would have been just vermin against vermin, funny that Woodlanders got roped up in it.

(Of course they did...nosy buggers.)
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Sanddunes on September 05, 2017, 09:02:37 PM
Quote from: Ashleg on September 05, 2017, 06:10:58 AM
With a name like that it sounds like it would have been just vermin against vermin, funny that Woodlanders got roped up in it.

(Of course they did...nosy ants.)

that could be the case with the vermin armies also attacking the woodlanders problem is Brian didn't talk about it that much
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Ashleg on September 05, 2017, 10:13:02 PM
Well, it'd make fer a good fanfiction.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Sanddunes on September 06, 2017, 05:08:41 PM
Sorry it's wars not war.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Ashleg on September 06, 2017, 08:32:15 PM
Hmm.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: The Skarzs on September 21, 2017, 05:08:44 AM
Quote from: Ashleg on September 05, 2017, 10:13:02 PM
Well, it'd make fer a good fanfiction.
You should write it.




On a similar note, I have a theory on why most vermin are stupid. If they mostly come from the north, perhaps the reason they leave in the first place is because they are the less intelligent of their races, and either decide to leave their home or are forced out to make room for those who are not stupid.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Ashleg on September 21, 2017, 05:28:55 AM
Most vermin aren't stupid!
Most good vermin are stupid.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Sanddunes on September 23, 2017, 12:04:03 AM
Quote from: The Skarzs on September 21, 2017, 05:08:44 AM
Quote from: Ashleg on September 05, 2017, 10:13:02 PM
Well, it'd make fer a good fanfiction.
You should write it.




On a similar note, I have a theory on why most vermin are stupid. If they mostly come from the north, perhaps the reason they leave in the first place is because they are the less intelligent of their races, and either decide to leave their home or are forced out to make room for those who are not stupid.

I don't think it's how smart they are but how strong
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: The Skarzs on September 23, 2017, 12:51:57 AM
That may also be part of it.

Welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Captain Tammo on October 10, 2017, 04:35:19 AM
I don't know how I only just stumbled across this theory topic but it's absoballylutely amazing and I love it.

Quote from: The Skarzs on September 21, 2017, 05:08:44 AM
n a similar note, I have a theory on why most vermin are stupid. If they mostly come from the north, perhaps the reason they leave in the first place is because they are the less intelligent of their races, and either decide to leave their home or are forced out to make room for those who are not stupid.

As for why vermin are dumb, hm.... I think I'm gonna make a new topic for that if there isn't one already! I've got a couple ideas...
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Maudie on October 10, 2017, 05:48:47 AM
Probably inbreeding...
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Captain Tammo on October 10, 2017, 04:59:31 PM
Quote from: Maudie on October 10, 2017, 05:48:47 AM
Probably inbreeding...

Gruesome but a possibility. We don't know much about vermin culture...
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Ashleg on October 10, 2017, 05:20:19 PM
That makes sense. I never thought of that.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: The Skarzs on October 10, 2017, 05:50:48 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on October 10, 2017, 04:59:31 PM
Quote from: Maudie on October 10, 2017, 05:48:47 AM
Probably inbreeding...

Gruesome but a possibility. We don't know much about vermin culture...
. . . Quite.
It doesn't seem to be supported, but looking at Kurda and her brother from Triss it seems the most likely reason. . . And I doubt it would be mentioned explicitly.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Ashleg on October 10, 2017, 10:39:27 PM
I feel like I would have liked Kurda more had she had an easier to understand accent. She didn't come off as smart to me not because of anything she did, but because of her voice. :P
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Krantor the Brutal on October 16, 2017, 01:41:29 PM
However, intelligent vermin are usually killed off...
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Ashleg on October 16, 2017, 05:25:05 PM
She was the main villain. She died anyway.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Krantor the Brutal on October 16, 2017, 05:42:44 PM
I mean the likes of Scragg and Barranca.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Ashleg on October 16, 2017, 05:46:02 PM
Bah, Scragg got his due.

Cheesethief FTW.

But Barranca... :'(
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: The Skarzs on October 16, 2017, 05:47:15 PM
I kinda liked Scragg.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Krantor the Brutal on October 16, 2017, 05:57:11 PM
Barranca had potential to have a more major role in the book. And the monitar lizard general, was kinda useless if you ask me.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Ashleg on October 16, 2017, 11:33:44 PM
Annoying upstart, him.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Krantor the Brutal on October 17, 2017, 08:57:19 AM
Aye, all he did was leave Sampetra, get the Abbot and die on the way back.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Ashleg on October 17, 2017, 01:11:31 PM
Hah, whoops, I was talking about Scragg.
Title: Re: The Great War of the Redwall World
Post by: Krantor the Brutal on October 17, 2017, 03:44:40 PM
Oh... Scragg had potential to be a captain  actually.