Redwall Abbey

Brian Jacques' Works (Spoilers) => History, Legends and Myths => Topic started by: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on July 07, 2017, 10:43:43 PM

Title: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on July 07, 2017, 10:43:43 PM
Vote'er 'appened tae Martin'z Tomb after tvaz found in ze original Redwall book? Tiz ne'er mentioned again az far az ah can remember, und ah zink zere are partz in ze zeriez takin' place after ze firzt book vhere it lookz like zey dinnae 'ave it zhovin'. Did zey zeal it back up again, or zummat elze? Ah vid zink zat tvid be loike an 'oly place fer ze Abbey or zummat. If zey did zeal it back up, zen vhy did zey?
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: The Skarzs on July 08, 2017, 01:03:47 AM
My best guess would be that they sealed it back up to respect the dead. However, why it was never mentioned does seem odd, because such an important figure in the Redwall history shouldn't be forgotten, and they would keep every part of him and the memory of him present, which would logically include his tomb.
Even a mention of it in later books would have been nice.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Ashleg on July 08, 2017, 01:15:42 AM
What if they forgot about it...and its door is still open, just waiting for the unlucky explorer to venture inside...
DUN DUN DUN!
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Luftwaffles on July 08, 2017, 03:14:04 AM
Early writing was pretty weak.

I can easily see this detail as being forgotten about.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: James Gryphon on July 08, 2017, 03:18:57 AM
I totally disagree about the early writing being 'weak', but it's fair that it might have been a detail that was lost.

That said, I think the main reason why it didn't come up again was because it wasn't needed for anything.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Luftwaffles on July 08, 2017, 03:25:41 AM
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 08, 2017, 03:18:57 AM
I totally disagree about the early writing being 'weak', but it's fair that it might have been a detail that was lost.

"Redwall" was a chore to read and I think many of us would agree on that, though.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: 321tumbler on July 08, 2017, 03:42:40 AM
Yeah I would agree on that. I generally don't consider most of those little details in the first book solid enough to be supported in the world of Redwall.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: The Skarzs on July 08, 2017, 03:53:30 AM
It seems a bit of a loose end, still.
Like I said, a brief mention of the tomb would have sufficed to end wonderment about it.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Ashleg on July 08, 2017, 05:39:57 AM
I actually loved the first book, minus the cat/horse/potential "human" things, which irritated me because they were out of place.

The rest of the book was awesome and is the single reason for my being here in the first place.
As for a serious answer to that Tomb thing...
I agree with James.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: MeadowR on July 08, 2017, 06:09:42 PM
Redwall was no chore for me, and was certainly not 'weak' writing! Lots happened and it kept me interested throughout. :)

But to the question... I don't remember much about the tomb. I suppose it being mentioned - and explored - was enough; it didn't really need to be explored again. We can assume that it was still there. Another little mention might have been nice later on, about some character in need, or a warrior, going to view it and getting some 'feeling' from being around there, a little different to the usual Martin visions, or something like that.

(I hope this post doesn't post a zillion times... got signed out during writing it.)
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Grond on July 09, 2017, 01:51:42 AM
On the topic of toms/graves- one thing that came up to me was that by the time of the Rogue Crew or later books Redwall's graveyard must have gotten pretty huge since virtually all the abbeybeasts were buried on Abbey grounds (provided they died inside the Abbey or close to it). Even if they dug up old graves after a while and reburied the newly dead in them that must have taken up a significant portion of Redwall's courtyard, yet the graveyard is never outright mentioned just that so and so creature was buried...
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: MeadowR on July 10, 2017, 03:27:21 PM
I was rather surprised that more wasn't mentioned of the graveyard. (I think there was even a thread about this previously?) A few characters had their special resting places mentioned, but yeah - what of the rest? There could have been any time a character/s had to go through the graveyard: a scenario being a few dibbuns have run off and they have to search everywhere, and maybe find them in the graveyard. It could have been spoken of in a way to make it sound like a non-foreboding place; a character could have gone to the grave of a past loved one asking for advice and so on. Or, it could even be a place where the badbeasts hide and camp out whilst trying to take over the abbey. I can envision the characters getting frightened about being there at night. If Brian wasn't afraid of taking us down into these caves and rooms and things to find a tomb (Brocktree in his armour one was pretty creepy), then I can't see why the graveyard area couldn't have been mentioned.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Ashleg on July 10, 2017, 03:38:43 PM
He might not have thought about it.
I'm going to admit that as obsessed with Redwall as I am, the thought of a graveyard never once actually occurred to me.
Of course they have one.
They have to.

Meanwhile in my writings everybeast just is assumed to be cleaned up after a battle and it's not mentioned again.

/me cringes.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Jetthebinturong on July 10, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
I actually don't think Redwall has a specific graveyard, I think they just bury people wherever. A sort of returning them to nature type deal.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: MeadowR on July 10, 2017, 04:23:27 PM
I thought that as well, but there have been so many abbeydwellers over the years I thought they might run out of places to bury them (same with graveyard, but then they could expand in a concentrated area). I suppose there could still be a kind of graveyard area which is not obviously a graveyard, but perhaps has some markings on the ground where they've been buried underneath, and the living can still walk over, like in old cathedrals.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: The Skarzs on July 10, 2017, 05:43:10 PM
I think there was a graveyard at St. Ninian's. Does anyone else recall that?
Failing that as a burial place, the most likely area would be on the plains.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Ashleg on July 10, 2017, 06:20:27 PM
What if they've all been stuffed into Martin's tomb?
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Luftwaffles on July 10, 2017, 07:14:32 PM
Quote from: The Skarzs on July 10, 2017, 05:43:10 PM
I think there was a graveyard at St. Ninian's. Does anyone else recall that?
Failing that as a burial place, the most likely area would be on the plains.

Wasn't that abandoned, though?
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: The Skarzs on July 10, 2017, 07:59:27 PM
It was burned down. But the grounds would still be intact, and what better place for a cemetery?
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Luftwaffles on July 10, 2017, 08:52:42 PM
Quote from: The Skarzs on July 10, 2017, 07:59:27 PM
It was burned down. But the grounds would still be intact, and what better place for a cemetery?

No yeah, totally.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: The Skarzs on July 10, 2017, 10:53:46 PM
I believe in the Long Patrol there was a mass grave for the Rapscallions(?) who had died, but other than that. . .
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Ashleg on July 10, 2017, 11:07:11 PM
Do they only bury select creatures?
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: The Skarzs on July 11, 2017, 01:09:52 AM
I don't think they would specially bury vermin. :P I imagine most Redwallers would be given proper burials in private graves, or in the case of wartime, lined up neatly in a large grave.
We should look up what the burial practices for the ancient Celts was like.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Grond on July 11, 2017, 06:20:12 AM
Quote from: The Skarzs on July 10, 2017, 05:43:10 PM
I think there was a graveyard at St. Ninian's. Does anyone else recall that?
Failing that as a burial place, the most likely area would be on the plains.

Sure, but I can't recall in any of the books it being mentioned that Abbey beasts who died in or near the Abbey during peace time who weren't buried within abbey grounds. There is no mention of an Abbey beast being buried at St. Ninians or on the plains. I can only think of one example contrary to this in the book the Long Patrol, following the battle with the Rapscallions that the good beasts were buried I think on top of the hill/ridge. But that would be an extreme circumstance and doesn't really explain peace time burials...

Loamhedge Abbey, had a specifically designated area for their graveyard- complete with headstones/tombstones as detailed in the book of the same name. Since Loamhedge mice buried their dead- to very much Western standards, and they founded Redwall it makes sense that they would preserve their mortuary/burial practices at Redwall.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: The Skarzs on July 11, 2017, 02:03:28 PM
Yes, but the amount of creatures that have died and would have died over the ages would have filled any designated area for burial inside the abbey.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on July 12, 2017, 11:56:48 PM
Ah zink Ah recall vone or zeveral Vermin bodiez bein' zrovn in ze ditch ootzoide.
Zere are many zin'z mentioned in ze firzt book zat dinnae appear anyvhere elze in ze zeriez: loike Abbot Mortimer namin' ze Zvord, Martin'z Tomb, etc. It needz tae be noted zat Redwall vaz originally vritten az a zingle Novel.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Ashleg on July 13, 2017, 12:02:22 AM
That does not mean that important places like that have an excuse to just disappear.
Brian kept lots of location-type things in-world (excluding the maps, which vary every book) consistent.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: The Skarzs on July 13, 2017, 08:07:33 PM
He kept in several things, like the weathervane being where the sword was put and St. Ninian's, but he definitely left out many other things. Like after Mattimeo the sparrows just disappeared.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Ashleg on July 14, 2017, 12:58:23 AM
Maybe the Redwallers cooked them and ate them. >:D

Or they forgot to pay their rent!
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: NovaNocturne on July 14, 2017, 02:36:51 AM
This would make for a fascinating detail to have been featured in one of the books. Too bad there won't be any more other than fanfiction.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Maudie on November 28, 2017, 03:09:43 AM
On the subject of graveyards, well, it isn't a given that they'd run out of space. To be blunt, humans and animals are organic matter and a quick google search shows that it takes about 8-12 years for an unprotected human body buried underground to decompose to just a skeleton, and about 50 years for it to decompose altogether. Assuming that Redwall animals are about human size then it would be about 200 seasons for one to decompose completely. Of course, in real life small woodland animals decompose a lot more quickly than humans. Honestly, in the real world animals die quite plentifully and while it isn't abnormal to encounter the body of a dead animal, it's not like we're seeing them littering the ground with no extra space. In the world of Redwall animals are likely not any more numerous that they are in this one, and there are no humans to take up even more space. Assuming they didn't make a concentrated effort to bury every Abbey beast on Abbey grounds, there would be plenty of room for the corpses to decompose with little worry of cluttering up the ground.

Also, speaking of Martin's tomb, I kind of noticed a pattern with the Redwall books. As they evolved and the nature of the Redwall world changed, Brian would often simply ignore the out of place elements in the developing books, almost as though they had never happened. While I don't think Brian would have gone back and changed those original books, I do think he was carrying on with his world as though certain elements from them had never existed. My guess is that's what he did with Martin's tomb. I personally would have loved to explore that further, as well as Abbess Germaine's tomb, the attics, the belltower, and the whole Kotir-is-built-under-Redwall thing. I really enjoyed the elements that he did touch on again and give some sort of history and resolution, like Brockhall and St. Ninians. Perhaps if he had been able to write more books in the series he would have revisited some of those less touched on locations.
Title: Re: What Happened To Martin's Tomb?
Post by: Grond on December 05, 2017, 01:49:52 AM
Quote from: Maudie on November 28, 2017, 03:09:43 AM
On the subject of graveyards, well, it isn't a given that they'd run out of space. To be blunt, humans and animals are organic matter and a quick google search shows that it takes about 8-12 years for an unprotected human body buried underground to decompose to just a skeleton, and about 50 years for it to decompose altogether. Assuming that Redwall animals are about human size then it would be about 200 seasons for one to decompose completely. Of course, in real life small woodland animals decompose a lot more quickly than humans. Honestly, in the real world animals die quite plentifully and while it isn't abnormal to encounter the body of a dead animal, it's not like we're seeing them littering the ground with no extra space. In the world of Redwall animals are likely not any more numerous that they are in this one, and there are no humans to take up even more space. Assuming they didn't make a concentrated effort to bury every Abbey beast on Abbey grounds, there would be plenty of room for the corpses to decompose with little worry of cluttering up the ground.

Also, speaking of Martin's tomb, I kind of noticed a pattern with the Redwall books. As they evolved and the nature of the Redwall world changed, Brian would often simply ignore the out of place elements in the developing books, almost as though they had never happened. While I don't think Brian would have gone back and changed those original books, I do think he was carrying on with his world as though certain elements from them had never existed. My guess is that's what he did with Martin's tomb. I personally would have loved to explore that further, as well as Abbess Germaine's tomb, the attics, the belltower, and the whole Kotir-is-built-under-Redwall thing. I really enjoyed the elements that he did touch on again and give some sort of history and resolution, like Brockhall and St. Ninians. Perhaps if he had been able to write more books in the series he would have revisited some of those less touched on locations.

The rate at which bodies or especially bones decompose underground can vary a lot and 50 years for a skeleton to completely decompose seems a bit short (unless there isn't ground seepage of salt water, or water in general into the grave). As it is not uncommon for archeologists to unearth human bones that are centuries or even millennia old.

But that aside, any kind of body be it human or animal will be broken down much quickly above ground than below ground. This is one of the reasons you don't see dead animals all over the place. Bodies decompose much more quickly in an oxygen rich environment i.e. above ground than in one with less of it. Plus flies/maggots. Finally scavengers play a big role to when bodies are out in the open. However animal densities, generally speaking, are also much lower than human pop. densities. Given that Redwallers are sedentary and do bury their dead it is unlikely that they would leave the corpses just laying around in Mossflower. Also most settled societies generally practice burial or cremation because it stops the spread of diseases. Which becomes a huge concern when you have a large population concentrated in a relatively small area. Can you imagine if human corpses where just left in a city's streets for instance? Hunter and gatherer or nomadic societies where more likely to just leave the corpses in the open (because they have a lower population and are spread over a large area) plus the idea of going back to nature is in tune with more nature based religions. The mortuary and religious practices of some groups of pre contact American Indians come to mind for instance...