Redwall Abbey

Brian Jacques' Works (Spoilers) => History, Legends and Myths => Topic started by: Captain Tammo on June 29, 2011, 05:22:34 PM

Title: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on June 29, 2011, 05:22:34 PM
hey guys, I've been wondering, what's the history behind the ditch in front of redwall?  ??? I'm thinking it was from building and landscaping parts of the abbey?

What do you think?
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Osu on June 29, 2011, 05:45:24 PM
I always thought it was for drainage purposes... like, when it rains a lot, the ditch is probably filled with water. ???
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on June 29, 2011, 06:19:43 PM
Quote from: Osu on June 29, 2011, 05:45:24 PM
I always thought it was for drainage purposes... like, when it rains a lot, the ditch is probably filled with water. ???

Another reason to keep the dibbuns inside. Otherwise they might decide to get barrels or something and sail in the water.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Osu on June 29, 2011, 06:43:27 PM
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on June 29, 2011, 06:19:43 PMAnother reason to keep the dibbuns inside. Otherwise they might decide to get barrels or something and sail in the water.
Haha, that'd make a cute subplot. Some dibbuns sail down the ditch one day and have to be tracked down. Adventure afoot! I love it.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Redwall Musician on June 30, 2011, 07:07:42 PM
I wonder about the sparrows. They don't come in any other books after Mattimeo. Did the sparras leave? Did they die out?

The Dibbuns are very naughty. Don't go to the ditch!
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Tiria Wildlough on July 01, 2011, 06:11:01 AM
Quote from: Redwall Musician on June 30, 2011, 07:07:42 PM
I wonder about the sparrows. They don't come in any other books after Mattimeo. Did the sparras leave? Did they die out?

The Dibbuns are very naughty. Don't go to the ditch!
Remember? Their Queen and most of the others died, so I think they must have died out or something.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Tiria Wildlough on July 01, 2011, 06:13:07 AM
Did you know that Redwall Abbey was built over Castle Kotir? It's in The Long Patrol.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Osu on July 01, 2011, 08:22:25 PM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on July 01, 2011, 06:13:07 AM
Did you know that Redwall Abbey was built over Castle Kotir? It's in The Long Patrol.
Yes, now you mention it - was there a ditch mentioned in Mossflower? That might explain it. Perhaps it was a moat of sorts for the old castle, or... or something?
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Tiria Wildlough on July 02, 2011, 08:34:06 AM
I don't know. I'll have to re-read Mossflower.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on July 02, 2011, 06:22:25 PM
Quote from: Osu on June 29, 2011, 05:45:24 PM
I always thought it was for drainage purposes... like, when it rains a lot, the ditch is probably filled with water. ???
That could be true, but then why wouldn't the ditch be all the way up and down the path instead of just by redwall?
Maybe (and this is a long shot) but in The Long Patrol , it said that after Kotir was destroyed, most of the area where Redwall was was a swamp. Maybe parts of the castle fell and made a big hole in the ground that later hardened and the ditch. Again, probably not true BUT a possibility.

Also, does anybody remember that mutant-rat-like thing in Mossflower ? I forget it's name but it fought a pike and died. Anyway, it lived beneath Kotir in an underground pond/SPRING. When Kotir was destroyed and Redwall was built, an underground spring became the abbey pond. If you connect the two it makes sense... Kinda creepy though that and murderous mutant-rat lived where the abbey pond is and dibbuns play in it. Just thought that part was interesting...
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Osu on July 03, 2011, 03:47:34 AM
That's an interesting theory! And I'd forgotten about that rat-thing, I must re-read that book... aww shoot, I have to re-read them all. XD

Aaaand yes... this is kind of creepy now that you mention it. =/
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: AakashB on July 03, 2011, 06:02:05 AM
Very interesting theories. I had never thought about the ditch that much.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: sabretache5611 on July 04, 2011, 11:58:53 PM
the ditch seems to have been there...as far as I know, since Legend of Luke so it was there at Redwall's founding, but not before Kotir....hmmm....really interesting...my personal opinion is that it was mouse/creature made not a side-effect of Kotir's destruction....
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: DanielofRedwall on July 05, 2011, 06:11:59 AM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 02, 2011, 06:22:25 PM
Quote from: Osu on June 29, 2011, 05:45:24 PM
I always thought it was for drainage purposes... like, when it rains a lot, the ditch is probably filled with water. ???
Also, does anybody remember that mutant-rat-like thing in Mossflower ? I forget it's name but it fought a pike and died. Anyway, it lived beneath Kotir in an underground pond/SPRING. When Kotir was destroyed and Redwall was built, an underground spring became the abbey pond. If you connect the two it makes sense... Kinda creepy though that and murderous mutant-rat lived where the abbey pond is and dibbuns play in it. Just thought that part was interesting...
It was called the Gloomer. That thing was so creepy!
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 06, 2011, 03:08:16 AM
There was no tunnel the Gloomer used. It was taken out by Kotir's gate to the area near the otters' hideout. That is, there was no tunnel that was known of, but there's no reason to think there was.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Icefire on July 07, 2011, 05:16:50 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 02, 2011, 06:22:25 PM
Quote from: Osu on June 29, 2011, 05:45:24 PM
I always thought it was for drainage purposes... like, when it rains a lot, the ditch is probably filled with water. ???
That could be true, but then why wouldn't the ditch be all the way up and down the path instead of just by redwall?
Maybe (and this is a long shot) but in The Long Patrol , it said that after Kotir was destroyed, most of the area where Redwall was was a swamp. Maybe parts of the castle fell and made a big hole in the ground that later hardened and the ditch. Again, probably not true BUT a possibility.
I guess I just assumed it was connected with the destruction of Kotir...I never really thought about it before.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Lutra on July 21, 2011, 01:11:19 AM
Never thought anything about the ditch until it was brought up.  My first thought was Kotir...maybe something caved in, or something of that sort, and voila, there's a ditch.  There's no explicit mention to my knowledge if Redwall is directly over Kotir or were their portions of the former that sank into the earth in time or crumbled away.  Interesting conversation piece here.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on July 21, 2011, 02:01:30 AM
I just realized, it could be connected to Kotir's destruction because the ditch goes way past the abbey in both directions
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Lutra on July 21, 2011, 02:34:04 PM
^ About all that's been brought up is the pond and that having been Gloomer's home.  If that was once inside Kotir's walls, and its now inside Redwall's then they could be the same size, but you would think of settling ground, especially if Redwall is built over the foundations of Kotir. ;)
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on July 21, 2011, 09:40:43 PM
It said in the long patrol that Kotir was literally buried naturally and redwall went over it. Then they discovered a spring in the middle of the abbey grounds and it became the pond. I think that was glommer's pond because it had to be a spring under Kotir. I doubt the guards would bring all that water down to the tunnels beneath Kotir just because.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Lutra on July 22, 2011, 02:20:32 AM
Alright, I pulled out Mossflower, read it through, and based on the book, Kotir crumbled within the natural lake formed when it was flooded.  If this is what became the abbey pond, then Kotir's ruins are in the depths of the pond and probably along the grounds.  It seems less likely the foundations are the cause of the ditch.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Lily on July 22, 2011, 03:04:16 AM
I just assumed the ditch was always there as a natural formation. It's mentioned before the abbey was built and seems to continue for a long way down the path.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Nightfire on July 27, 2011, 03:25:06 AM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on July 01, 2011, 06:11:01 AM
Quote from: Redwall Musician on June 30, 2011, 07:07:42 PM
I wonder about the sparrows. They don't come in any other books after Mattimeo. Did the sparras leave? Did they die out?

The Dibbuns are very naughty. Don't go to the ditch!
Remember? Their Queen and most of the others died, so I think they must have died out or something.

No they didn't! In the epilogue of Mattimeo, it clearly states that the Sparra are flourishing and maintaining contact with the Redwallers. They renamed the roof spaces "Warbeak's Loft" in honor of their fallen queen, but they did not die out. I highly recommend you re-read the epilogue of Mattimeo.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 27, 2011, 02:48:53 PM
It didn't draw any attention to technical details regarding their fate, it only stated they were floruishing.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Nightfire on July 27, 2011, 03:48:00 PM
I think that the ditch was caused when one of the tunnels use to flood Kotir caved in. It seem very likely.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 27, 2011, 03:52:58 PM
Quote from: Lady Amber on July 27, 2011, 03:48:00 PM
I think that the ditch was caused when one of the tunnels use to flood Kotir caved in. It seem very likely.

The tunnels were in a different area than the ditch, and the ditch was already there.
There was a big deal over Martin, Gonff and Dinny's three vermin pursuers getting over it.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Nightfire on July 27, 2011, 07:00:20 PM
It could have been a stream or creek that dried up.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Log-a-Log on July 28, 2011, 02:22:18 AM
Yeah, I think it might be a runoff from the river that eroded the ditch, then eventually dried up
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Nightfire on August 04, 2011, 10:06:13 PM
Yes. There is a 99.99% chance that the ditch is a dried up stream.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on August 05, 2011, 12:25:31 AM
There's no such thing as percentage in this kind of thing, that's just fanon.
Afterall, there is no explanation, and there won't be.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on August 05, 2011, 03:33:21 AM
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on August 05, 2011, 12:25:31 AM
there is no explanation, and there won't be.

I disagree, there are many explanations as to why the ditch got there, and I'm certain there IS an answer, maybe it's mentioned on one of the stories, maybe we'll never find out. But there are individual explanations that are possible
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on August 05, 2011, 03:23:38 PM
Hold up, mate. I meant no explanation for certain. And also, in all the books I've read, it is not mentioned, and some who've read them plenty more than me echo that statement. The explanations given by fans are labeled fandom, they're speculation, as you said.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on August 06, 2011, 02:26:04 AM
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on August 05, 2011, 03:23:38 PM
I meant no explanation for certain.

O sorry my bad, I just misinterpreted
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Nightfire on August 18, 2011, 08:36:37 PM
I still think the ditch is a dried up stream. Anyway, this subject is about the whole of Redwall, not the ditch. The ditch isn't even part of Redwall!! I personally wonder about the gatehouse. In Redwall and Mattimeo is is portrayed as a gatehouse cottage where creatures can live, and then in Pearls of Lutra, which chronologically takes place right after Mattimeo, it is portayed as just a gatehouse with the abbey's records in it. And hat about the underground tunnels that the moles dug in Ironbeak's seige? They are never mentioned again after the epilogue of that book.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on August 18, 2011, 08:39:57 PM
It was in Mattimeo where the gatehouse was portrayed as a cottage. In High Rhulain, a family of dormice lived there. In the rest of the books, various other creatures held abode.
Probably just not relevant for another Redwall tale, so Brian left them as a mystery and unconcern.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Nightfire on August 18, 2011, 10:44:26 PM
Hmm. What about the tunnels dug underground by the moles during Ironbeak's seige? It says in the epilogue that they are used later on as an underground winter system, but they are never used by the Redwallers again, or even mentioned.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on August 18, 2011, 11:08:22 PM
That's what the last line I posted was about, I just didn't state that it was.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Nightfire on August 19, 2011, 03:30:58 PM
What about the few Redwall books that began in winter, like Rakkety Tam? The tunnels would have been great to use then.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on August 21, 2011, 03:26:16 AM
In the redwall cartoons, the gatehouse is off to the side of the gate itself, but shouldn't it be inside the main gate?
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on August 21, 2011, 03:31:03 AM
I don't get what you mean. The gatehouse is to the north of the main gate against the wall, not reaching to the ramparts.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on August 21, 2011, 03:36:14 AM
I always thouht the gatehouse was IN the main gate. I got the "build your own redwall" kit when I was littler and it was inside the main gate, not off to the north of it
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Nightfire on August 30, 2011, 07:32:21 PM
I really want that Build your own Redwall Abbey kit. I can't find it nywhere in the US stores though, and I am not allowed to order stuff online. :(
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on September 01, 2011, 03:27:13 AM
It was really neat, but it was all thin cardboard and never really stayed together, which made it hard to play with. But it gave me an AMAZING visual of the abbey and where things were. As far as if it was worth it or not? I'm not really sure. I paid $40 US dollars for it and it just sat there a lot... It had it's pros and cons I guess
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: winifred on October 12, 2011, 05:58:07 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on June 29, 2011, 05:22:34 PM
hey guys, I've been wondering, what's the history behind the ditch in front of redwall?  ??? I'm thinking it was from building and landscaping parts of the abbey?

What do you think?
I think it was put there for the sole pourpose of the vermin they always go for the ditch it helps in alot of plots.I also really want the build your own redwall abbey but hav'nt seen it anywhere? :(
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on October 16, 2011, 04:10:58 PM
I had to get it online. But back to my other question, the kit showed the gatehouse IN the main gate. That's always what it sounded like in the books too IMO. It seems only the cartoon is different.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: the long patrol 2 on October 29, 2011, 05:00:50 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on June 29, 2011, 05:22:34 PM
hey guys, I've been wondering, what's the history behind the ditch in front of redwall?  ??? I'm thinking it was from building and landscaping parts of the abbey?

What do you think?
No the ditch was there in "Mossflower' the book BEFORE they build the abbey.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Nightfire on October 30, 2011, 08:22:40 PM
I still think it's a dried up river. :P
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Log-a-Log on October 31, 2011, 09:13:02 PM
This is a suggestion, but maybe it could've been a very, very, very small abyss like the one in Mattimeo, although once again, much much smaller. 
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung The Otter on November 06, 2011, 06:19:50 PM
 ;D maybee it was used as a defense system
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on November 15, 2011, 02:00:25 AM
I guess we'll never know for sure. I kind of like not knowing much about Mossflower and the world of redwall... It keeps things interesting. If everything was perfectly simple and clear as black and white, what fun would that be??? It would take away from the adventure in my opinion..
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung The Otter on November 28, 2011, 12:55:45 PM
if'n ye read MOSSFLOWER ye would see dat Diny, Gnoff, and Martin Jumped o'er a ditch. This is the didtch in fron o' Redwall.  ;D
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Gears on November 28, 2011, 01:01:02 PM
yup, but i think it was dug so an enemy could only charge the gates if they were over ditch, thus in weapon range.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung The Otter on November 28, 2011, 01:05:43 PM
how would it have been dug as an attack syrem if'n there was noting tae attack
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Nightfire on November 28, 2011, 03:44:09 PM
I think it may have been a defense system developed by those that built Kotir.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung The Otter on November 28, 2011, 03:45:43 PM
interesting
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on November 28, 2011, 08:59:41 PM
Quote from: Nightfire on November 28, 2011, 03:44:09 PM
I think it may have been a defense system developed by those that built Kotir.

Never thought of that.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung The Otter on November 28, 2011, 09:01:27 PM
but then why was it so far from Kotir
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Skipper on November 29, 2011, 07:16:12 AM
its not, if you read long patrol it says the south wall of the abbey is built on one of Koiters walls so it isnt far from Koiter
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung The Otter on November 29, 2011, 12:43:42 PM
oh...;)
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Nightfire on December 03, 2011, 07:46:01 PM
Think: Kotir, vs an invading army. The army would have to cross the ditch first, and that would give the Kotir defenders time to fire off a few dozen volleys of arrows, which would mow down the first batch of invanders.


That would actually make an interesting fanfic....
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Taggerung The Otter on December 03, 2011, 11:35:21 PM
ah mite make it ;)
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: MatthiasMan on April 04, 2012, 12:26:26 AM
Yeah but I think the ditch was made by the castle Kotir and that pond rat just made a secret escape cave but over time the cave caved in on itself creating a ditch.  Ever thought of that?
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: W0NWILL on November 07, 2012, 05:05:04 AM
I think that's unlikely. The Gloomer was kept on a lead, remember?

I have to agree with the defensive thought in making the ditch. Invading armies could easily be pinned and trapped in the ditch by a few archers and slingers. And if anyone wishes to make the argument that it's a nice place to dig into the castle/abbey, vermin were never the smartest, and they may not take that into consideration.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: phoenixfoden on November 07, 2012, 10:45:16 PM
Are we talking about the ditch in front of redwall?i have wonderd what that is used for
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Lord Gorath on November 18, 2012, 02:20:55 AM
It said in some book, one I can't remember, that there was a lake where Kotir fell. I think it shrank into a pond, then during a drought it dried up into a ditch.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: 321tumbler on December 27, 2012, 10:49:17 PM
That's a good idea.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on December 28, 2012, 08:38:51 PM
Quote from: Lord Gorath on November 18, 2012, 02:20:55 AM
It said in some book, one I can't remember, that there was a lake where Kotir fell. I think it shrank into a pond, then during a drought it dried up into a ditch.
SPOILER ALERT FOR MOSSFLOWER




What happened was Kotir was flooded by the river Moss in a plot to bring it down. Some moles from CORIM dug tunnels into the deepest chambers of Kotir and connected them to River Moss. Then the water of the river went right into Kotir, flooding it from inside out! This made the whole area look like a lake and, after the battle was over and the tunnels were plugged up again, the area turned into a swamp and, finally solid ground. The pond in the abbey is a natural spring.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on December 28, 2012, 10:09:39 PM
Sorry about the double post, but how tall are Redwall's walls?
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Leatho Shellhound on December 29, 2012, 02:05:05 AM
Big!

Look at those people in the picture as being otters

(http://www.sucs.org/~cmckenna/photos/caernarfon_castle/castle-walls-from-street1.jpg)
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Tam and Martin on December 29, 2012, 02:24:34 AM
Wow
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Leatho Shellhound on December 29, 2012, 02:50:02 AM
Quote from: Tam and Martin on December 29, 2012, 02:24:34 AM
Wow

Yep, Now think of that when you are reading to books.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on December 30, 2012, 07:12:19 PM
That helps quite a bit! Which castle is that? Or is it a fort??
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Leatho Shellhound on December 30, 2012, 09:38:07 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on December 30, 2012, 07:12:19 PM
That helps quite a bit! Which castle is that? Or is it a fort??

Caernarfon castle, Look it up to see more pictures.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on January 27, 2013, 08:16:28 PM
Do you think there's any connection between Rose, Martin's love, and the fact that he built an abbey that Jacques so often describes as having "Rose colored walls"?
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Leatho Shellhound on January 27, 2013, 08:20:26 PM
Um well he planted the late rose from her grave near the wall.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Mattio on January 27, 2013, 08:24:47 PM
Quote from: Osu on July 01, 2011, 08:22:25 PM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on July 01, 2011, 06:13:07 AM
Did you know that Redwall Abbey was built over Castle Kotir? It's in The Long Patrol.
Yes, now you mention it - was there a ditch mentioned in Mossflower? That might explain it. Perhaps it was a moat of sorts for the old castle, or... or something?
I think it was the old lake that Martin and co. Filled up again then when it went down they built the abbey ao I wonder if it was the edges of the lake that the abbey didn't cover up
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Free Thought on February 03, 2013, 12:39:02 PM
There was no ditch mentioned in Mossflower, but they would have had to drain the water from Kotir's ruins/lake somehow.  My take on it is that the ditch originated from drainage lines Dinny and the moles would have dug to move the water. 

And as far as the Abbey pond is concerned, it would have been one of the low points that never drained properly (must likely where the flood holes were placed), and so volia! a pond that is river fed.

Those are just my takes on it though...
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on February 04, 2013, 10:08:30 PM
Quote from: Mattio on January 27, 2013, 08:24:47 PM
I think it was the old lake that Martin and co. Filled up again then when it went down they built the abbey ao I wonder if it was the edges of the lake that the abbey didn't cover up

That couldn't be it. Because then the ditch would circle the abbey
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Leatho Shellhound on February 06, 2013, 02:32:34 AM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on February 04, 2013, 10:08:30 PM
Quote from: Mattio on January 27, 2013, 08:24:47 PM
I think it was the old lake that Martin and co. Filled up again then when it went down they built the abbey ao I wonder if it was the edges of the lake that the abbey didn't cover up

That couldn't be it. Because then the ditch would circle the abbey

I think he just added it for the book.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: 321tumbler on February 06, 2013, 01:46:33 PM


That couldn't be it. Because then the ditch would circle the abbey
[/quote]
Doesn't the ditch line the path?
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on February 06, 2013, 09:50:43 PM
I THINK I'VE GOT IT!!!! And please forgive me if one of you has already mentioned this theory...

Note how whenever Brian says it rains, he almost always says the ditch fills up with water. Here is my theory, the ditch was purposefully put in by the creatures building Redwall to catch water from sitting right on the path. This means the path would have to have been made with a slant, which Brian never mentions if it was (as far as I know). But it would certainly explain a lot! Brian said that beyond the ditch was flatlands. And we can imagine that Redwall was also built on flat land. Putting a ditch in between there would give the water someplace to go so its not just sitting there.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Leatho Shellhound on February 06, 2013, 11:13:12 PM
Could be, also it could be a defence, like motes at castles.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Kitsune on February 08, 2013, 08:13:12 PM
The last few posts make sence.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on April 09, 2013, 02:58:44 AM
So which is it? Sould I make a pole?
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Shadowed One on April 09, 2013, 01:30:37 PM
It seems like it doesn't serve any practical purpose. I think Brian added it just so vermin hordes could hide in it. I mean, whenever vermin attack Redwall, they always hide in the ditch.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Romsca on April 09, 2013, 09:55:44 PM
Maybe some vermin dug it early on to hide in and the Redwallers never filled it back in
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Shadowed One on April 10, 2013, 01:21:45 AM
Quote from: Romsca on April 09, 2013, 09:55:44 PM
Maybe some vermin dug it early on to hide in and the Redwallers never filled it back in

Maybe! But it would have to be before Mariel of Redwall, because the ditch was there then.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Kitsune on April 10, 2013, 01:54:51 PM
True, true.....
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on April 10, 2013, 08:26:21 PM
I think that the dich was just there naturly. It didn'y have to be creature-created.....
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Shadowed One on April 12, 2013, 01:47:11 PM
But if it wasn't there in "Mossflower". So it would have to have been made naturally right before "Legend of Luke", because I think it was there then.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Vilu Daskar on May 07, 2013, 01:38:37 AM
Quote from: Osu on July 01, 2011, 08:22:25 PM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on July 01, 2011, 06:13:07 AM
Did you know that Redwall Abbey was built over Castle Kotir? It's in The Long Patrol.
Yes, now you mention it - was there a ditch mentioned in Mossflower? That might explain it. Perhaps it was a moat of sorts for the old castle, or... or something?
But the ditch follows the path all the way to river moss.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: The Skarzs on October 25, 2014, 01:10:23 AM
Revive. Yeah, old topic, but I'd just like to put in my two cents on the matter.

Ever since I heard about the ditch when I read the books, I had always assumed that it was made there for a couple reasons: First, to provide the material to make the path. When a road or anything is made, extra dirt and stuff is added to fill in low spots, as well as putting another layer on top for when it is compacted; roads must be packed down so as to stay sturdy enough for travel. Secondly, the ditch would let rain drain off toward wherever it lead, keeping water from ruining the path/road.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Tam and Martin on November 03, 2014, 12:52:42 PM
Totally agree there. Back in their time, they didn't have cement or concrete so they would have to compact the dirt down so it would be safe to travel on.
Title: Re: Redwall
Post by: Captain Tammo on November 03, 2014, 11:55:41 PM
Yeah good point there, Skarzs.
I strongly doubt that the Redwallers put in the ditch just to use as defense since they always had the safety of their walls to be behind. If it was put there for defense, that would be a pretty lousy call on the architect's part seeing as how every horde that lays siege to Redwall uses the ditch as cover. Perhaps that's it!!

You see, Brian never specifically tells us why the ditch is there, right? In the first book, Redwall, the ditch is simply shown as being there. But consider this, I think Brian wanted a creative way to shield the villains from fire up on the wall tops, so he just... Made the ditch a thing to spice it up a bit! Could you imagine how easy it would have been for Redwall to be defended if there was no ditch for villains to hide behind? it'd be almost boring! I also think that maybe Brian included the ditch so that you couldn't have things like siege towers coming straight at the wall. The ditch ends up serving as an interesting environmental advantage and disadvantage on both sides of the fight.

Then, as the series moves along, we see that the ditch appears to be something that stretches up and down the path a ways. I don't recall if this was something mentioned in Redwall, but I think Brian just added a little bit where it became a much bigger ditch than in the first book, serving as all kinds of things, mainly trash and a sort of drainage system for the local area.

So to summarize, perhaps the ditch was just a thing that Brian added because he could? Then it went on to serve a bunch of functions and play a surprisingly big role in the series.