Redwall Abbey

Brian Jacques' Works (Spoilers) => Character Discussion => Topic started by: Ashleg on September 15, 2017, 05:07:23 AM

Poll
Question: Who's the better FRIEND?
Option 1: Martin
Option 2: Gonff
Title: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 15, 2017, 05:07:23 AM
This will be a poll topic.
Each poll will showcase two characters competing for a common title, along the lines of (EXAMPLE) "Who's the better Skipper?"
Some votes will require logical thinking and others mere opinion.

Do converse, and argue, or agree, or whatever. Enjoy.

I'll update the polls as I please.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 16, 2017, 05:06:18 PM
Who's the better WARRIOR?
Martin
- 1 (25%)
Luke
- 3 (75%)
Total Members Voted: 4

Luke.

NEXT ONE!
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: The Skarzs on September 16, 2017, 05:35:37 PM
Rollo, I guess.
(This is like asking who's a better baby, my little brother or my friend's little brother.)
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: MeadowR on September 16, 2017, 06:01:20 PM
Darn, these questions require a good memory! Which one was Rollo? I'll vote Silent Sam because you don't forget him: paw-sucking and pointing.:D
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 16, 2017, 08:43:09 PM
Rollo was the one from Mattimeo who helped solve the prophecy, and he appeared again as a senior citizen in a later book.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: a crumb on September 16, 2017, 11:01:54 PM
Quote from: Ashleg on September 16, 2017, 08:43:09 PM
Rollo was the one from Mattimeo who helped solve the prophecy, and he appeared again as a senior citizen in a later book.
I'm not sure why, but I find your description of him as a "senior citizen" vaguely funny.


Anyway, I voted Silent Sam. Mattimeo-era Sam is a very pleasant character for that book.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 17, 2017, 12:23:09 AM
Well? He was! ;D
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: The Skarzs on September 17, 2017, 06:26:06 AM
Yes he was. Though I don't think he would be considered a dibbun.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 17, 2017, 07:05:32 AM
Not in that book, but when he first showed up, he was a Dibbun.

He was even in the show as "Baby Rollo"...
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Maudie on September 20, 2017, 11:58:28 PM
I think Skarzs was talking about Mattimeo-era Silent Sam  ;)
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: The Skarzs on September 21, 2017, 12:54:06 AM
^ :P
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 21, 2017, 04:58:27 AM
Your mom.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: The Skarzs on September 21, 2017, 05:01:13 AM
-_-


New poll?
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 21, 2017, 05:27:49 AM
In the morning.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 22, 2017, 05:31:50 PM
Who's the better DIBBUN?
Rollo
- 5 (45.5%)
Silent Sam
- 6 (54.5%)
Total Members Voted: 11

New poll. Mute Squirrel wins by one.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: The Skarzs on September 22, 2017, 05:35:47 PM
Ferahgo, definitely. He was extremely competent, and dangerous even to a badger. Plus he died in a badass way.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 22, 2017, 05:40:23 PM
I can't believe that got through the "PLEASE BAN ME NOW" Censor.

How did Swartt die again?
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: The Skarzs on September 22, 2017, 05:42:30 PM
Outcast of Redwall spoilers: Flung off a cliff by Sunflash.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 22, 2017, 05:43:38 PM
Oh, I wasn't aware that Swartt was a Disney Villain. Good to know.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: a crumb on September 22, 2017, 05:47:31 PM
Swartt is one of my favorite villains. More dynamic horde leader that underwent several phases of leadership. We saw him leading a small band and a large army. Both were interesting to see. We even got a family dynamic that's very uncommon with vermin leaders. Felt more fleshed out than most, definitely.
Which might make you think I voted for Swartt. But I didn't. Because I misclicked.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: James Gryphon on September 22, 2017, 05:54:00 PM
Quote from: Ashleg on September 22, 2017, 05:40:23 PM
I can't believe that got through the "PLEASE BAN ME NOW" Censor.
Fixed. 8-)

Ferahgo is much more interesting as far as the family aspect goes.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Tam and Martin on September 22, 2017, 06:58:35 PM
voted swartt becus i don't remebemr ferahrgo sorry :D
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Jetthebinturong on September 22, 2017, 09:03:32 PM
Who's the better father? That's a tricky one. Was it the one who didn't care about his mate, gave his son to someone else and then left them both to die in a ditch? Or was it the one who was actively involved in a hypercompetitive assassination game with his son? Personally, I say Ferahgo. He actually raised Klitch to at least his teenage years, and he never actively wants Klitch dead, he only retaliates to his attacks, iirc.

Ferahgo is also my favourite character out of the two, if you weren't literally asking who the better father was.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 22, 2017, 09:06:02 PM
I was asking a mix of the two, and you bring up some pretty valid points.

I voted for Feragho meself.

Quote from: James Gryphon on September 22, 2017, 05:54:00 PM
Quote from: Ashleg on September 22, 2017, 05:40:23 PM
I can't believe that got through the "PLEASE BAN ME NOW" Censor.
Fixed. 8-)

Ferahgo is much more interesting as far as the family aspect goes.

Now it has incorrect grammar. Fix it.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: James Gryphon on September 22, 2017, 10:21:20 PM
From my memory of Salamandastron, Ferahgo and Klitch never actually attack or do anything against each other. There's one or two moments where there's some violent tension (and a time where Ferahgo thought his son had something to do with an assassination attempt), but ultimately they stay on the same side throughout the entire book.

That said, Swartt is pretty much at the bottom of the list as far as vermin parents go. Besides at least being a pretty successful warlord (giving his son a verminy role model to look up to, at least until they actually met) he was a terrible father. Sawney Rath might make a more interesting comparison, or Riggu Felis.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 22, 2017, 10:37:28 PM
Sawney Rath was the best father. No questions asked.

Right Felis was horrible.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Jetthebinturong on September 23, 2017, 01:43:02 AM
Swartt is literally at the bottom of the father list. Except maybe for Nimbalo's dad. We don't have an accurate way of gauging their relative horribleness.

Riggu Felis, if I recall correctly, was actually a pretty decent father for a villain. He discouraged infighting between his kids, admonished Pitru for being so bloodthirsty, and tried to encourage Jeefra to stand up to his brother and be more confident. I mean, he did all of these things in a kind of cold, villainous way, but relatively speaking he was a pretty good dad.

I literally just noticed that the Felis family is like a taken-up-to-eleven version of the Greeneyes family. Riggu is like a more evil Verdauga, Pitru is like a bratty Tsarmina, and Jeefra is like an even meeker version of Gingivere.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 23, 2017, 02:02:47 AM
Jeefra was treated really poorly by Riggu, or was that just me?
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on September 23, 2017, 02:16:43 AM
Yeah, because his father thought he was a milksop. Which, actually, he kind of was (especially for a wildcat). Still, Riggu Felis was a relatively responsible father, and I was always disappointed when he was killed before Pitru.


As for Swartt, I haven't read Outcast in a long time, but I recall him as particularly callous. Ferahgo seemed much more... involved with his son.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: a crumb on September 23, 2017, 02:25:14 AM
Swartt did not care about marrying Bluefen, but did to safeguard his consolidating power. He did not care about the birth of Veil, did not care when the child was lost after a battle, and did not care when he returned after many seasons. He was an extraordinarily apathetic father. But, we did get to see a vermin leader before he had a child, and in the early days of such a thing. I can't think of another example of that outside Sawney Rath...who was a lot more interested in 'his' child.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 23, 2017, 02:59:35 AM
Who's the better FATHER?
Swartt Sixclaw
- 1 (11.1%)
Feragho the Assassin
- 8 (88.9%)
Total Members Voted: 9


Feragho wins by a landslide. Or a cliffslide.
Now vote.

Sawney Rath was a very good dad, methinks. He was super good to Tagg.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: The Skarzs on September 23, 2017, 04:36:30 AM
I liked Sawney. As far as we know, he was more interested in staying above the other vagabonds than trying to be evil, and while Tagg certainly didn't appreciate him much by the time he left, Sawney was always reasonable with him. He wanted to make him the perfect Taggerung, and he would have succeeded and probably made an awesome mentor to the Taggerung if it wasn't for those pesky otter genes. . .
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 23, 2017, 07:14:52 AM
Yeah, and Sawney wasn't biases towards Tagg at all for being an otter.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: The Skarzs on September 23, 2017, 04:54:04 PM
An interesting relationship. It seems that vermin were almost more lenient towards good beasts than vice versa.

Someone chose Riggu. Why is that?
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on September 23, 2017, 05:14:03 PM
I think that's a bit of a tenuous position, Skarzs. Sawney hadn't any qualms about killing Deyna's father. Now, I do think Sawney came to care about Tagg, but the original intent was simply a bid to secure power for the Juskarath.


He's undoubtedly a much better father than Riggu Felis. However, Riggu Felis also had messed-up kids.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Jetthebinturong on September 23, 2017, 05:19:48 PM
That's not the point. Sawney didn't kill Deyna's father because he was an otter, he killed him because he was the father of the Taggerung and Sawney wanted the Taggerung. Vermin don't tend to discriminate between killing goodbeasts and other vermin, they're just destructive in general. The Juska clans less so than other vermin hordes in the series.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on September 23, 2017, 05:24:46 PM
Right. And the woodlanders weren't destructive. Except to the vermin.


Because of, I don't know, maybe the fact that literally every single vermin except like two will try to murder your family and steal your stuff?
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 23, 2017, 09:35:03 PM
The Gnoffelins and Pygmy shrews and those squirrels in MTW (actual reoccurring groups save for one) as well as multiple hedgehogs, shrews, and voles throughout the series were equally destructive.

And I'm pretty sure there were instances in the Rogue Crew and other books where vermin are hunting a bird or sommat FOR FOOD, because, y'know, that's what they EAT and all, and Woodlanders stopped them because goodness forbid somebeast eat a chicken sandwhich.

Of course the bird helps them later an' whatnot. But they weren't friends prior. So in a way they're beating somebeast up for trying to not die--they just stole his food.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on September 24, 2017, 03:23:02 AM
I, for one, can't ever recall any woodlander assaulting vermin for the sole reason that they were hunting birds. Criticize them, perhaps, but attack or interfere? I ran a cursory check through The Rogue Crew, and I saw no such event there. Cite me your example if I'm wrong, but I'm 95% sure that never happened.

As for the other woodlanders you mention, it is important to note that they were the exception to the rule. The pygmy shrews were slavers, and obnoxious, but they were hardly woodlanders in any proper sense of the word. The Gonfelins were not destructive; they stole things from vermin mostly, but had a sort of "thieves code of honor," if you will. Furthermore, it says they joined the Abbey and completely gave up thievery, as well. Finally, the Gawetrybe: let's just say I was totally in for them being devoured by the Warden, and leave it at that.

Other than those, I can only think of Yoofus Lightpaw, Tugga Bruster, some voles (who are really in a sort of grey area as being woodlanders or vermin), and Aggril and whoever that crazy bee lady was. Yoofus really should have been punished somehow, but he wasn't vicious. We know how Tugga Bruster ended up. The voles mostly were killed by vermin. The two hedgehogs were insane.

I fail to see any meaningful comparison between vermin who could basically be guaranteed murderers, and the occasional woodlander who might be unscrupulous or insane, but rarely murderous.

Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Jetthebinturong on September 24, 2017, 03:28:12 AM
I disagree. Most horde members in the books flee after their leaders are killed, which essentially proves that they're only in it out of fear of their leaders, the first book even specifically mentions that Cluny pressganged people into joining him, and when they refused, he destroyed their homes. However, in later books of the series, the woodlanders are okay with the wholesale slaughter of vermin.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on September 24, 2017, 03:33:53 AM
True. But almost inevitably, you find that they simply create smaller raiding groups that, while they are less dangerous, are no less murderous. It's not that the vermin are only evil because they are being compelled to be evil, it is that they are cowardly. Their leaders are dead, so they see no use in continuing what is obviously a hopeless prospect of assaulting a superior force, and retreat. That's not a lack of viciousness, it's self-preservation. The only vermin that we ever see actually give up a life of villainy are those of Castle Marl. In fact, usually, when the hero lets vermin go, they usually come back and attack the hero (or someone the hero cares about). See numerous books for this. Off the top of my head, The Long Patrol is a good example.

Actually, I have a fanfic in production where the water rats of Castle Marl come to Redwall and face discrimination because of the fact that they are vermin, when they are in fact more peaceful than the Redwallers themselves. It's an interesting concept.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 24, 2017, 03:57:13 AM
I swear the thing about the bird. Let me try to find that.

The Rogue Crew were also murderers. Just because they were only after vermin doesn't mean they weren't. They sing heckin' songs about it fer goodness' sake.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on September 24, 2017, 04:18:26 AM
Well, if we agree on the premise that essentially all vermin are murderers, and note that this is an era with no judicial system, the Rogue Crew is essentially a group of vigilantes. Not that I like the Rogue Crew, their book was actually my least favorite of the whole series, but killing murderers is technically a form of extrajudicial justice. And singing songs about blood and death is rather reprehensible, but if their singing is what you take issue with, that's an entirely different issue.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 24, 2017, 04:41:03 AM
I'm saying that they're no higher up than the vermin who do murder. And more are thieves than murderers. As you said there are a ton of Woodlander thieves.

As Jet said, most join/stay in hordes out of fear.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on September 24, 2017, 05:25:35 AM
If I recall correctly, they began the Rogue Crew because vermin murdered their families. And, throughout the series, vermin have proven that often they steal, yes, but in concert with enslaving, torturing, and then murdering whoever they steal from. Rare indeed is a vermin who "just" steals.


I've already said, vermin join hordes because they think they can gain from their leader's conquest. They are held in line by that leader's discipline. When the leader goes, the vermin are defeated, and so they retreat, and create smaller raiding parties that nonetheless murder and kill whomever happens to fall into their path. This is seen throughout the series.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 24, 2017, 04:26:49 PM
What's also seen is characters being coerced into joining hordes (or being coerced into not leaving) (or being killed because they disagree with said leader) but hey, look, new poll.

Who's the better FATHER?
Sawney Rath
- 6 (85.7%)
Riggu Felis
- 1 (14.3%)
Total Members Voted: 7

Sawney Wins. ;D
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: a crumb on September 24, 2017, 04:50:04 PM
BADGERMOTHER CREGGA.

The name just begs to be bellowed.
The near perfect epitome of a Redwallian badger. Insanely fierce, and insanely caring.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Jetthebinturong on September 24, 2017, 05:09:35 PM
Cregga. But Mother Mellus was better. And Bella, come to think of it.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 24, 2017, 08:17:16 PM
What about Bella? I think Mellus is comparable but Bella was just "eh".
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: The Skarzs on September 24, 2017, 08:32:51 PM
Cregga is best for always.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 24, 2017, 08:38:48 PM
Yeah, Cregga's da bomb.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Tam and Martin on September 24, 2017, 11:57:28 PM
hate cregga sooooo CONSTANCE  :laugh:
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Maudie on September 25, 2017, 12:31:02 AM
Why do you hate Cregga?
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 25, 2017, 02:39:37 AM
I'm disappointed in you. >:(
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Tam and Martin on September 25, 2017, 03:52:54 PM
Its been forever since ive read the books but I remember not liking her because she was rude in the Long Patrol book to all of her followers with the bloodwrath and all. that was before she was a badgermum though
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 25, 2017, 05:15:47 PM
But the question is about when she's a badgermum.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: The Skarzs on September 25, 2017, 05:20:04 PM
What I find interesting is how many books she was in. And because of that her death was probably one of the most emotional of the series
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 25, 2017, 05:24:03 PM
To me, it was THE only emotional death in the series.

Everyone is like "ohh, Rose's was so sad", but no other death except maybe Veil's and the Warbeak's made me feel anything.

Yeah, I'm bummed/annoyed if a character I like dies, but I usually feel like they deserve more in terms of a death scene. And Cregga's was amazing.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: The Skarzs on September 26, 2017, 01:18:41 AM
Indeed.
She probably had one of the most amazing lives in the series, on the same level if not higher than Martin's.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Maudie on September 30, 2017, 07:30:57 PM
Can we get another poll? Pretty please?

@Ashleg
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on September 30, 2017, 08:35:31 PM
Who's the better BADGERMUM?
Constance
- 2 (20%)
Cregga
- 8 (80%)
Total Members Voted: 10

Cregga is the best Badgermum! Next poll!
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: The Skarzs on September 30, 2017, 10:18:51 PM
I feel like Damug was more accomplished, but for some reason I liked Raga Bol better as a character.
I will need to reread their books.


Also. . . I found this pic of Damug Warfang.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MpPCpijmIck/UW16XH5VICI/AAAAAAAABtA/1JLDbOuvZ4w/s1600/Damug+Warfang+Portrait.jpg)
And this of Raga Bol.
(https://pre00.deviantart.net/e90e/th/pre/f/2014/157/d/0/raga_bol_portrait_by_yasminfoster-d7kls41.jpg)

(There are some good drawings/pictures out there.)
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: MeadowR on September 30, 2017, 11:21:13 PM
Can't remember who Damug was. Raga Bol was rather interesting a villain. Maybe not fully fleshed out as such, if I remember rightly, but pretty ruthless in his baddie ways.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on October 01, 2017, 01:37:15 AM
Quote from: The Skarzs on September 30, 2017, 10:18:51 PM
I feel like Damug was more accomplished, but for some reason I liked Raga Bol better as a character.
I will need to reread their books.


Also. . . I found this pic of Damug Warfang.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MpPCpijmIck/UW16XH5VICI/AAAAAAAABtA/1JLDbOuvZ4w/s1600/Damug+Warfang+Portrait.jpg)
And this of Raga Bol.
(https://pre00.deviantart.net/e90e/th/pre/f/2014/157/d/0/raga_bol_portrait_by_yasminfoster-d7kls41.jpg)

(There are some good drawings/pictures out there.)

Yeah, YasminFoster has always done great Redwall paintings. A bit too humanlike for my taste in some cases, but good nonetheless.

Quote from: MeadowRabbit on September 30, 2017, 11:21:13 PM
Can't remember who Damug was. Raga Bol was rather interesting a villain. Maybe not fully fleshed out as such, if I remember rightly, but pretty ruthless in his baddie ways.

Damug is the one who blinded Cregga!
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on October 23, 2017, 05:44:24 PM
New poll!

Who's the better RAT WARLORD?
Raga Bol
- 1 (12.5%)
Damung Warfang
- 7 (87.5%)
Total Members Voted: 8

Damung wins!
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: MeadowR on October 24, 2017, 05:45:36 PM
Which one was Gabool?
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: a crumb on October 24, 2017, 05:51:25 PM
The guy who went mad over a bell and loved a pet scorpion.

Did have a really cool island-operation operation going, though. Gabool serves as the leader who allows other pirate captains to use Terramort if they remain reliably loyal to him. I always wished we could see more of how Gabool corralled that system together to begin with.
I personally always thought it was more interesting than what we saw at Sampetra, and Gabool is more interesting than Ublaz. But Romsca is actually shown to be competent on a higher level, so she gets my vote.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on October 24, 2017, 05:54:14 PM
Quote from: MeadowRabbit on October 24, 2017, 05:45:36 PM
Which one was Gabool?

What Crumb said, but most importantly, the main villain of Mariel.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: James Gryphon on October 24, 2017, 06:52:58 PM
Gabool is pretty obviously a better pirate than Romsca; he was a great sea captain for many seasons, then became King of All Sea-Rats, the undisputed best pirate. He had riches beyond compare and a fleet of ships captured in pirate operations. Romsca was first mate on a ship behind Conva, briefly became captain after he was killed, and then failed to perform her first mission as commander of her ship. You might like her better but as far as who has proven to be better at being a pirate it's no contest.

Gabool vs. Ublaz or Gabool vs. Barranca would be much more comparable. I think Gabool wins both of those too but it would be closer to apples to apples. Gabool vs. Ripfang (Mossflower) would also be a good one.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on October 24, 2017, 08:51:53 PM
I too voted Gabool, but many would argue (and are arguing) that Romsca is better both because they like her and because she was skilled.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: The Skarzs on October 24, 2017, 09:54:19 PM
Gabool is the better pirate, definitely. But I really liked Romsca.
Title: Re: Who's the better (BLANK)?
Post by: Ashleg on February 15, 2018, 07:18:17 PM
Who's the better PIRATE?
Gabool
- 7 (58.3%)
Romsca
- 5 (41.7%)
Total Members Voted: 12

New poll.