Redwall Abbey

Brian Jacques' Works (Spoilers) => History, Legends and Myths => Topic started by: BadgerLordFiredrake on July 25, 2013, 02:28:34 AM

Title: Martin's sword blade
Post by: BadgerLordFiredrake on July 25, 2013, 02:28:34 AM
This is about the blade itself.  I know it was from an asteroid, but why is it so strong?  Iron is iron is iron.

Randomly found this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/495_Eulalia) while browsing.  xD
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: phoenixfoden on July 25, 2013, 06:28:29 AM
Thats awesome  :D
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Rusvul on July 25, 2013, 12:46:34 PM
Quote from: BadgerLordFiredrake on July 25, 2013, 02:28:34 AM
This is about the blade itself.  I know it was from an asteroid, but why is it so strong?  Iron is iron is iron.

Randomly found this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/495_Eulalia) while browsing.  xD
Yes. Iron is iron. However, there is no chance at all that Martin's sword is pure iron. It never shows any signs of rust or dent after its reforging, and if it is made of steel, which is far more likely, there are all sorts of possible metals in there. One of the metals that might have made it so strong is Iridium, which is the most dense element on the periodic table, and I believe the densest thing we know of. If Martin's sword was of normal steel, except with tiny amounts of Iridium, it might not effect the weight very much, but it would most likely make the blade much harder. I don't think iridium rusts, but I could be wrong on that.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: BadgerLordFiredrake on July 25, 2013, 06:48:54 PM
True.  But (grammar fail on my part) iridium/osmium normally aren't found in asteroids, as far as I know.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: The Shade on July 25, 2013, 08:28:22 PM
No, but tungsten is!!!!!( I think!!! :D ) Which explanins y it toke half the night to heat up.  Anyway, we'll never know what metals were in Martin's sword.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Rusvul on July 25, 2013, 10:03:47 PM
Quote from: BadgerLordFiredrake on July 25, 2013, 06:48:54 PM
True.  But (grammar fail on my part) iridium/osmium normally aren't found in asteroids, as far as I know.
Iridium is. If you've ever heard of Damascus steel, the reason it was so powerful is because it was unintentionally alloyed with Iridium. The raw material for Damascus steel was mined I believe somewhere in India. Back before we picked up all of the iron and metal that was lying on the surface, there was a lot of surface ore. This was due to asteroid strikes. They contained metals such as iron and copper, and apparently sometimes there were things like Iridium, which does not occur on earth except from meteor strikes or particle accelerators. Iridium is rare in asteroids, but it does occur. On the note of Tungsten: I know very little about it, however I do know that no matter what metal it was made of, it would have taken far more than one night to make a quality blade. Me, as an amateur, with help from an experienced smith, I can make a two inch knife blade in four hours, but that doesn't count the time it would take to anneal the metal, fit a stone, dress the handle, make a sheath, or sharpen it. Also, I can sharpen or heat something much faster than Boar the Fighter, due to blowtorches, gas forges, angle grinders, and belt sanders. To make a blade as fine as Martin's, of such a dense alloy, should have taken him at least a month.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: The Shade on July 26, 2013, 10:12:18 AM
Well, some of the hare could have helped......but yeah, there is no way Boar could have made a sword of that qulity, in that time.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on July 26, 2013, 04:41:34 PM
It could 'ave been magic...
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Mariel on July 26, 2013, 10:49:55 PM
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on July 26, 2013, 04:41:34 PM
It could 'ave been magic...
It was magic.  ;)
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Rusvul on July 27, 2013, 12:55:44 AM
Quote from: Mariel on July 26, 2013, 10:49:55 PM
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on July 26, 2013, 04:41:34 PM
It could 'ave been magic...
It was magic.  ;)
As was mentioned throughout the series, "The sword is only that, Matti- A sword. Whether it is good or evil depends on the beast who wields it." Also, in Redwall, they mention that the sword isn't magic, I believe it's Julian Gingevere who says that.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Shadowed One on July 27, 2013, 12:38:41 PM
Basically though, Martin needed to have the sword right away, not in a month. It IS fiction after all. And maybe in the Redwall world there is a faster way to make weapons.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Maudie on July 27, 2013, 10:38:41 PM
Yeah, maybe a machine or something. ;D :o
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Rusvul on July 28, 2013, 02:30:29 AM
Quote from: Shadowed One on July 27, 2013, 12:38:41 PM
Basically though, Martin needed to have the sword right away, not in a month. It IS fiction after all. And maybe in the Redwall world there is a faster way to make weapons.
I'm pointing out an implausibility in the series. I know it's fiction. If you look on other threads, such as the "Run like a Hare and fight like a Bear" thread, people seem to want to come up with an explanation for everything. Here, it's being dismissed as "It's fiction". I find it interesting that a less relevant topic has is surrounded in more controversy. I wonder why? Back on topic, if there is a faster way to make weapons, what do you think it might be?
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Romsca on August 05, 2013, 11:15:39 PM
Lots of hares helping?
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: The Shade on August 06, 2013, 09:06:36 AM
Maybe a little bit of magic dust poured on it?  ;D
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on August 06, 2013, 07:43:13 PM
Quote from: BadgerLordFiredrake on July 25, 2013, 02:28:34 AM
Randomly found this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/495_Eulalia) while browsing.  xD

'ere'z (http://www.kentauren.info/menu/index1.htm?page=/cgi-bin/astorb2txt.pl%3FSuchname%3DEulalia) a 3D diagram o' it'z orbit zat ah found after lookin' ziz up.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: The Shade on August 06, 2013, 08:59:34 PM
Arr, I can't see  :P
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Emperor Ublaz on September 27, 2013, 01:39:21 PM
Quote from: The Shade on August 06, 2013, 08:59:34 PM
Arr, I can't see  :P
Neither can I. There's something wrong with my flash player.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Leatho Shellhound on September 27, 2013, 09:17:58 PM
I saw it.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Shadowed One on September 28, 2013, 12:46:31 PM
Quote from: rusvulthesaber on July 28, 2013, 02:30:29 AM
Quote from: Shadowed One on July 27, 2013, 12:38:41 PM
Basically though, Martin needed to have the sword right away, not in a month. It IS fiction after all. And maybe in the Redwall world there is a faster way to make weapons.
I'm pointing out an implausibility in the series. I know it's fiction. If you look on other threads, such as the "Run like a Hare and fight like a Bear" thread, people seem to want to come up with an explanation for everything. Here, it's being dismissed as "It's fiction". I find it interesting that a less relevant topic has is surrounded in more controversy. I wonder why? Back on topic, if there is a faster way to make weapons, what do you think it might be?
I don't know, but I think it would be easier to make weapons if you are a big, strong badger.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Faiyloe on September 28, 2013, 01:04:40 PM
And a special forged.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Rusvul on September 29, 2013, 03:22:11 AM
@Shadowed One Yeah, but if you take into account he was working with a very strong and probably dense material, it would likely take longer than usual.

@Faiyloe What? Sorry, I don't quite understand.

I don't mean to stifle speculation, I am merely stating my knowledge.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Faiyloe on September 29, 2013, 12:41:35 PM
The forge at Salamandastron was not an ordinary forge.     
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Rusvul on September 30, 2013, 02:22:09 PM
Quote from: Faiyloe on September 29, 2013, 12:41:35 PM
The forge at Salamandastron was not an ordinary forge.     
Ah! Okay. No, it most definitely was not. It very well could have been specially suited to Starsteel, however I still don't know if it could have sped up the making that much. HEY! I just had an idea! Maybe Boar had one of his weird badger-visions and he knew Martin was coming and that he had to make a sword blade of exactly the right size! It's possible that in 12 hours you could take off a blade and fuse another one in its place.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: White One6193 on December 01, 2013, 02:35:20 AM
Here's a repost of one of my replies to a thread on this same subject.

Question: Hmf. About how long does it take to make a sword though?


Hohohoho! Now that's a good question, me lad! Okay, I am literally an apprentice blacksmith, plus I've read every book on sword-making I could get my hands on, so I know what I'm talking about here...

Now, in the books, Brian says that the sword was forged from the metal of a fallen star, aka meteoritic iron.
First thing, meteoritic iron, ESPECIALLY if you found enough to forge a broadsword (what I'd give to have a meteorite fall in my yard right now.. ) would be very hard to forge. Meteoric metal is usually a natural alloy of metals like striated iron (which is iron wherein the alignment of atoms have allowed the metal to form crystal patterns), manganese, tungsten, alumuminum , and chromium, or any combination thereof. Metals like manganese and tungsten increase the melting point of iron, making in more resistant to heat, and better at absorbing carbon, making it really hard and easy to hold an edge. An aluminum alloy decreases density, making the steel lighter, and more flexible, and less likely to fracture. Finally, for the crowning touch, you have chromium, which when added to iron makes it resistant to corrosion (explaining why the ancient blade still looks so good after such a long time)

Now onto forging. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that on that night so many seasons ago the "perfect" meteorite fell. This meteorite, in order to become Martin's magnificent blade, will need about equal portions of each element listed to be forged properly. Boar, having found this magnificent piece of metal, now has to melt of the slag off. Slag is the waste product that comes off the first forging. Now that that's done, Boar has to decide how to forge. This process takes about a day and a half.

Then, there's the process of turning this lump of iron(called a bloom, as it "flowered" in the forge) into a sword. First the smith has to divide his steel into edge, haft, and tang pieces.

  Brian said that Boar "folded the steel". This indicates that Boar was using a forge style called "pattern- welding". Pattern-welding is EXTREMELY difficult, requiring precise, rapid strokes of the hammer in order to weld the separate pieces together. Pattern welding can  and should only be done by a master smith. A a pattern blade is a near-perfect blade. It is resistant to fracture, holds an edge almost permanently, and if chromium is involved, will not rust. it can even cut through lesser blades!

This process, even with modern tools, can take weeks or months. With a sea-coal forge like that described in the books, it could easily take up to three months, or in other words: a season!
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: Rusvul on December 08, 2013, 03:04:03 PM
Riiiiight... You clearly know more about metalworking than me. :P

I've been working on a pair of identical shortswords off and on for about a year and a half. My friend, off and on, he was working on a single slightly-longer-sword for almost two years. Now, that's off and on, and only every other week for two and a half hours, but still, that's quite some time put into it.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: alderbowbeast on November 30, 2014, 01:49:02 PM
It is true that Iron is Iron, or steel as the case may be in Martin's sword, but there is one small factor that we need to keep in mind: The Redwall Series is fantasy.  In reality there is no such thing as a super metal.  All steel reacts the same.  The fact that the sword never rusts is again fantasy.  Keeping it out on the roof for who knows how many years would have pretty much destroyed it.  However, since Redwall is a fantasy series there can be such things a super metals that never break or rust.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: SilentSam on November 30, 2014, 02:49:57 PM
Woah this is so cool!!
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: The Skarzs on November 30, 2014, 03:01:02 PM
Quote from: alderbowbeast on November 30, 2014, 01:49:02 PM
It is true that Iron is Iron, or steel as the case may be in Martin's sword, but there is one small factor that we need to keep in mind: The Redwall Series is fantasy.  In reality there is no such thing as a super metal.  All steel reacts the same.  The fact that the sword never rusts is again fantasy.  Keeping it out on the roof for who knows how many years would have pretty much destroyed it.  However, since Redwall is a fantasy series there can be such things a super metals that never break or rust.
There are superalloys, but they have only been invented by modern technology. Also, not all steel reacts the same: The carbon content or addition of other alloying materials gives steel a MASSIVE variety in the way it reacts to heat, tempering, shattering, bending, springing, rusting, durability, etc. (01 steel, 440, 5160, 1090, 1030: these are all different steels that have noticeable differences in them.)
   As stated before, perhaps in another thread, I think it might have been a natural alloy from the falling star; maybe osmium, iron, titanium, and nickel.
Titanium doesn't rust, and it is incredibly, incredibly strong. Osmium is a very dense metal, though it is brittle up to a point; this is where an alloy of iron would come in useful, to give it some flexing ability. Lastly, nickel is a metal used for stainless steel: it would give the metal a shine and a rust-resistance.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: CaptainRocktree on December 02, 2014, 01:13:36 AM
Quote from: The Skarzs on November 30, 2014, 03:01:02 PM
Quote from: alderbowbeast on November 30, 2014, 01:49:02 PM
It is true that Iron is Iron, or steel as the case may be in Martin's sword, but there is one small factor that we need to keep in mind: The Redwall Series is fantasy.  In reality there is no such thing as a super metal.  All steel reacts the same.  The fact that the sword never rusts is again fantasy.  Keeping it out on the roof for who knows how many years would have pretty much destroyed it.  However, since Redwall is a fantasy series there can be such things a super metals that never break or rust.
There are superalloys, but they have only been invented by modern technology. Also, not all steel reacts the same: The carbon content or addition of other alloying materials gives steel a MASSIVE variety in the way it reacts to heat, tempering, shattering, bending, springing, rusting, durability, etc. (01 steel, 440, 5160, 1090, 1030: these are all different steels that have noticeable differences in them.)
   As stated before, perhaps in another thread, I think it might have been a natural alloy from the falling star; maybe osmium, iron, titanium, and nickel.
Titanium doesn't rust, and it is incredibly, incredibly strong. Osmium is a very dense metal, though it is brittle up to a point; this is where an alloy of iron would come in useful, to give it some flexing ability. Lastly, nickel is a metal used for stainless steel: it would give the metal a shine and a rust-resistance.
My guess it was most likely made out of titanium as its main source, because it meets most of the requirements of Martins sword :P. Since my glasses are made out of titanium, I can say that it is very, very, very strong! After many concussions,falls,hiking trips,hunting trips,mountain biking rides, and lots more, they still remain in one piece  ;)
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: BadgerLordFiredrake on December 08, 2014, 12:55:40 AM
Quote from: CaptainRocktree on December 02, 2014, 01:13:36 AM
Quote from: The Skarzs on November 30, 2014, 03:01:02 PM
Quote from: alderbowbeast on November 30, 2014, 01:49:02 PM
It is true that Iron is Iron, or steel as the case may be in Martin's sword, but there is one small factor that we need to keep in mind: The Redwall Series is fantasy.  In reality there is no such thing as a super metal.  All steel reacts the same.  The fact that the sword never rusts is again fantasy.  Keeping it out on the roof for who knows how many years would have pretty much destroyed it.  However, since Redwall is a fantasy series there can be such things a super metals that never break or rust.
There are superalloys, but they have only been invented by modern technology. Also, not all steel reacts the same: The carbon content or addition of other alloying materials gives steel a MASSIVE variety in the way it reacts to heat, tempering, shattering, bending, springing, rusting, durability, etc. (01 steel, 440, 5160, 1090, 1030: these are all different steels that have noticeable differences in them.)
   As stated before, perhaps in another thread, I think it might have been a natural alloy from the falling star; maybe osmium, iron, titanium, and nickel.
Titanium doesn't rust, and it is incredibly, incredibly strong. Osmium is a very dense metal, though it is brittle up to a point; this is where an alloy of iron would come in useful, to give it some flexing ability. Lastly, nickel is a metal used for stainless steel: it would give the metal a shine and a rust-resistance.
My guess it was most likely made out of titanium as its main source, because it meets most of the requirements of Martins sword :P. Since my glasses are made out of titanium, I can say that it is very, very, very strong! After many concussions,falls,hiking trips,hunting trips,mountain biking rides, and lots more, they still remain in one piece  ;)
True, didn't think of that.
Title: Re: Martin's sword blade
Post by: LT Sandpaw on December 09, 2014, 02:47:08 PM

One way you could excuse the time it took to craft such a blade was the fact that badgers are much larger then mice, so much so that a sword like that would have been rather small, a mere knife to a badger. So combined with intense heat and the badgers massive strength It could be possible to finish the blade in a single night. With some help that is.