Domestic Animals, Feral Cats, and (Possible) Humans

[Mara the Wolf]

Something that bugs me:

In Redwall (the novel), there's implications of human habituation, such as:

• A rat army arriving in a haycart pulled by a horse
• Ferrets (which are domesticated European polecats)
• Mentions of dogs, pigs, cows, and chickens
• A place where "the dog and the pigs reside", implying a human town or farm
• A character named Chickenhound
• A church

Also, there's a beaver, but that doesn't imply human habituation (although, the lack of them in later books actually does [I'll explain later])

Now I get Brian Jacques didn't intend for the book to be published, that a friend or acquaintance sent it to a publisher and told Jacques he'd "be a fool not to publish it", so BJ hadn't thought about details of the world, and thus Redwall's implied to take place in the real world, complete with humans, but not in the series as a whole. However:

• In Mossflower, in Olav Skyfurrow's poem, there's "To bite the wool of sheep"
• In Mattimeo, Sister May says "I have enough herbs, berries and roots in my infirmary cupboards to lay a horse out flat." Also, Constance refers to the captured magpies as "three chickens in the bag"
• In The Bellmaker, someone likens Slipp and Blaggut's messy, gluttonous table manners to pigs
• In Eulalia!, an owl mentions a cow in a poem
• A slang term for hedgehog in-universe is "hedgepig"
• Likewise, a slang term for badger is "stripedog"
• The otters refer to themselves as "river dogs" and "sea dogs"
• There's still ferrets (maybe he was just using it because polecat can refer to skunks in certain parts of the world, but still...)
• No more beavers
• The "feral cats" in High Rhulain openly say their ancestors were kept as pets by "creatures more powerful than themselves"
• The Coin in The Sable Quean
• Even in the TV series and Redwall Graphic Novel, Cluny's army arrives in a horsedrawn haycart! Really BJ, would it have killed ya to just retcon their arrival as on foot?

And as for Saint Ninian's, I know the in-universe story: a fat mouse named Ninian and his family had to move and build a new house, but Ninian wouldn't help build the house, leading his wife to eventually put a sign when finished that read "This ain't Ninian's!" and most of the lettering faded away. But that doesn't explain why a house had pews, a choir loft, and a lady chapel.

Also, the lack of beavers implies human habituation. BJ stated that the reason there's no more beavers is because they aren't native to the British Isles, because humans overhunted them to extinction... But in a world where humans never existed, there's nothing to overhunt the beavers!

The only explanation I can come up with is that humans existed in the Redwall-verse at one point, but eventually died off (with the domestic animals in Redwall being the last of their kind.) Even taking into account that most of Redwall's setup, including the horse and haycart, has been retconned, the "feral cats" in High Rhulain openly say their ancestors were kept as pets by "creatures more powerful than themselves", and the Coin in The Sable Quean had to come from somewhere, Mossflower's animals don't seem to bother with currency, and they claim the "strange markings" on the Coin were worn off to the point of unreadability, so it's not impossible it was made by humans.

[WorshipTiria]

"Saint Ninians" is not a chuch, the sigh was originally "This aint Ninian's", the sign just rotted over time.

[Mara the Wolf]

It was a church in the first few books, like Redwall and Mattimeo (it's even stated to be one in Redwall, and Slagar demonstrates his bolas on a pew in Mattimeo), BJ simply retconned it into being a house so there'd be no more religious overtones.

[WorshipTiria]

Fair point.

[Steelinghades]

You know, despite how many books take place in the Redwall Universe, we actually see a very small part of Its world. Ninety nine percent of what we see is In Mossflower or near Salamandastron. That other one percent is the occasional Northlands or Southsward showing, we have literally zero idea what's to the east of Mossflower, what's further south, what you'd find If you sailed further west and so on. Despite what some people say about the series, Humans can be very easily slotted into Redwall, perhaps the reason nobeast has gone to the west and crossed the ocean and come back Is because they ran Into humans, the feral cats' old masters; maybe they have an Empire across the sea or whatever you want to think.

There is a remarkably large amount you could write about the subject in fanfiction, which is actually what I'm doing In my primary fanfiction story.

[WorshipTiria]

That is a good point. It could be a way Searats and corsairs get so much treasure, because seaside villages and cottages tend to be very poor.

[lass of something much]

Though you have some good points, though I must say, most of those are in the first few books, (Redwall, Mattimeo) BJ was still getting his world together, which is, in my opinion, to be expected in a first book. As for the mentioned farm animals: They could have been myths. Stories told by other generations.

[Mara the Wolf]

How points 5-12, or even just 8-12?

• A slang term for hedgehog in-universe is "hedgepig"
• Likewise, a slang term for badger is "stripedog"
• The otters refer to themselves as "river dogs" and "sea dogs"
• There's still ferrets (maybe he was just using it because polecat can refer to skunks in certain parts of the world, but still...)
• No more beavers
• The "feral cats" in High Rhulain openly say their ancestors were kept as pets by "creatures more powerful than themselves"
• The Coin in The Sable Quean
• Even in the TV series and Redwall Graphic Novel, Cluny's army arrives in a horsedrawn haycart! Really BJ, would it have killed ya to just retcon their arrival as on foot?
  

The slang terms exist throughout the entire series, and the rest come from past the point where he decided "No more human references...except ferrets and feral cats"

[Captain Wortshire]

Well, the haycart does play an important role later in the book... (The Siege Tower uses it as a base)

[Tungro]

You know, despite how many books take place in the Redwall Universe, we actually see a very small part of Its world. Ninety nine percent of what we see is In Mossflower or near Salamandastron. That other one percent is the occasional Northlands or Southsward showing, we have literally zero idea what's to the east of Mossflower, what's further south, what you'd find If you sailed further west and so on. Despite what some people say about the series, Humans can be very easily slotted into Redwall, perhaps the reason nobeast has gone to the west and crossed the ocean and come back Is because they ran Into humans, the feral cats' old masters; maybe they have an Empire across the sea or whatever you want to think.

That's actually quite an interesting thought, now i'm intrigued

[Steelinghades]

You know, despite how many books take place in the Redwall Universe, we actually see a very small part of Its world. Ninety nine percent of what we see is In Mossflower or near Salamandastron. That other one percent is the occasional Northlands or Southsward showing, we have literally zero idea what's to the east of Mossflower, what's further south, what you'd find If you sailed further west and so on. Despite what some people say about the series, Humans can be very easily slotted into Redwall, perhaps the reason nobeast has gone to the west and crossed the ocean and come back Is because they ran Into humans, the feral cats' old masters; maybe they have an Empire across the sea or whatever you want to think.

That's actually quite an interesting thought, now i'm intrigued

That's basically one of the main plot points of my fanfic.

[Tungro]

Is it completed yet?

[Mara the Wolf]

What's it called? Is it on this site or Fanfiction?

[Steelinghades]

Is it completed yet?

What's it called? Is it on this site or Fanfiction?

It's called Tales of Whiteheart, I do have It on here, but It's slightly behind Its Fanfiction.net counterpart, I'll be updating more today anyway.

Here It is:
https://redwallabbey.com/forum/index.php?topic=11975.0

[WorshipTiria]

I have a weird timeline of human annihilation and animals evolving in their place that happens over multiple series I liked as a child.

First: Warriors
Cats and badgers are gaining sentience and powers of prophecy and omens similar to what we see in Redwall.

Second: Seekers
Bears have gained sentience and Ujurak has the ability to shapeshift into a human. The Ice caps are melting fast.

Third: Survivors.
Canines have acquired sentience. The more important thing here, though, is that humans have gone extinct due to massive earthquakes.

Fourth: Guardians of Ga'Hoole
Birds have gained sentience. They now have the ability to make buildings, and have learned the secrets of forgery. A magpie sells old human artifacts like stained glass shards.

Last: Redwall
All animals but fish and insects have gained sentience. They now can do everything a human can, but they have attributes that are better than that of a human.