Redwall Abbey

Brian Jacques' Works (Spoilers) => History, Legends and Myths => Topic started by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 11, 2011, 11:43:30 PM

Title: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 11, 2011, 11:43:30 PM
Arguably one of the most legendary and mysterious places in the Redwall universe, it was the home of wolverines and a wolf. It is a very mysertious place, and is populated, from what we know, by ermine, white foxes and fearsome wolverines, with the strange addition of a walking stone.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Captain Tammo on July 12, 2011, 07:52:53 AM
I just finished Rakkety Tam for the second time today. Is really good, one of the best. Something I don't get though. How could a cold blooded reptile like a turtle/walking stone live in a land of ice and snow? They'd have to get it from somewhere else and even then, how would they keep it alive if most of them are carnivorous when a turtle eats mostly plants?
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: James Gryphon on July 12, 2011, 08:02:50 AM
Well, maybe they have some special chamber that's built to protect it or preserve its life. I imagine maybe a large room with fires placed all through it, to keep the Walking Stones eternally warm; it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. Something like a medieval vivarium.

And you have to admit there is a certain irony in cannibalistic, ruthless vermin going to all that trouble to preserve and protect the life of a completely peaceful herbivore, and revering it as a symbol of power.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Captain Tammo on July 12, 2011, 08:10:36 AM
Yeah that is kind of odd. When the vermin said serving askor or dramez was easier, did they mean they were nice and just gulo was crazy?
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: James Gryphon on July 12, 2011, 08:17:24 AM
Well, if you mean "nice" in the sense that, "did they qualify as good", I'd say no. From what we see of Askor, he likely qualifies as a villain too -- even if he wasn't as nasty as Gulo.

I think we're essentially referring to something like the difference between Verdauga and Tsarmina... neither of them qualify as "good" in the standard sense, but the hordebeasts had fond memories of their lord Verdauga, and all the good times they had under him, and we see him fairly ruling his kingdom, whereas Tsarmina reigned in tyranny over everyone, woodlander and horde member alike.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: DanielofRedwall on July 12, 2011, 12:35:14 PM
I always find this place so mysterious. It's barely even mentioned. It would have been awesome if BJ made a book where the main characters travel there or something. We could actually read about wolves as a main character, which I thought would have been so cool. Just my thoughts...
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Captain Tammo on July 12, 2011, 06:51:02 PM
I want to see a wolverine fight a badger lord paw to paw. No weapons
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: daskar666 on July 12, 2011, 07:05:05 PM
I believe it has been stated in Rakkety Tam in the first chapter that the turtles came from somewhere other than the Lands of Ice and Snow.
Also I couldn't help but notice that out of the 18 Redwall books I read so far (currently reading the 19th one, Eulalia) NONE of them take place in winter. Or spring or fall for that matter. There are a few chapters in wintertime in Mossflower and Rakkety Tam but the main story itself ALWAYS takes place during the summer. I'm sort of puzzled by this considering that animals have fur AS WELL as clothes to keep them warm so they should be better off in winter weather than humans. Hibernation could have been an answer except for the fact that in the few chapters that take place in winter no one is hibernating.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 12, 2011, 07:21:01 PM
It's obvious the tortoise didn't come from the Land of Ice and Snow.


And there's Urgan Nagru's horde of vermin. It was remarked by him to have been brought to Southsward. That would indicate a populace of normal vermin, and not just white foxes and ermine. The Dirgecallers look to be insane versions of their race, similar to the Gloomer.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Captain Tammo on July 12, 2011, 08:58:44 PM
Someone should make a map of it!
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: James Gryphon on July 12, 2011, 09:06:34 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 12, 2011, 06:51:02 PM
I want to see a wolverine fight a badger lord paw to paw. No weapons
Well, it's hard to say because the Redwall series badgers are very heavily buffed up, compared to how strong they are in real life...

... but realistically, the wolverine would win. Badgers are pretty tough, but an adult wolverine is tremendously strong and is capable of holding off a wolf in single combat, and is better-equipped, with its jaws, to kill large creatures.

With weapons, of course, since most badgers (such as Boar the Fighter) are incredibly skilled, and probably smarter and more competent fighters than Redwall wolverines, it could go either way.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Captain Tammo on July 12, 2011, 09:10:43 PM
I want to see a badger army!!! Hahaha
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Tiria Wildlough on July 13, 2011, 03:41:29 AM
Too few badgers for that...
Anyway, back to topic. I think that someone should make a map of the lands of ice and snow, but it might not be so popular, the aforementioned location being mentioned in only one book.
*shrug*
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 13, 2011, 03:43:57 AM
It was mentioned in more than one book. It was mentioned in several. The Bellmaker, Rakkety Tam and I think one other.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Tiria Wildlough on July 13, 2011, 03:46:46 AM
Oh.
Oh well, it's still not the most talked about place.  :(
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 13, 2011, 04:50:30 AM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on July 13, 2011, 03:46:46 AM
Oh.
Oh well, it's still not the most talked about place.  :(


Hence the mystery. Important aspect.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Captain Tammo on July 13, 2011, 07:06:54 AM
That is what keeps our interest in it.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Icefire on July 13, 2011, 10:50:37 PM
Quote from: daskar666 on July 12, 2011, 07:05:05 PM
I believe it has been stated in Rakkety Tam in the first chapter that the turtles came from somewhere other than the Lands of Ice and Snow.
Also I couldn't help but notice that out of the 18 Redwall books I read so far (currently reading the 19th one, Eulalia) NONE of them take place in winter. Or spring or fall for that matter. There are a few chapters in wintertime in Mossflower and Rakkety Tam but the main story itself ALWAYS takes place during the summer. I'm sort of puzzled by this considering that animals have fur AS WELL as clothes to keep them warm so they should be better off in winter weather than humans. Hibernation could have been an answer except for the fact that in the few chapters that take place in winter no one is hibernating.
The characters are probably thankful that they don't have to go adventuring in the winter. ;D I thought there was one that was set in winter. ??? Maybe it's just that a lot of the introductions are set in winter.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Osu on July 14, 2011, 12:33:43 AM
I always figured the land of ice and snow was something like Wales, Ireland, or even the arctic circle. One does wonder how a tortoise managed to survive there, though. I'd like to see a book that takes place in the north, there.

And a fight between a wolverine and a badger would be too epic for words! Somebody should write one. Hey. Hey, all you fanfiction authors... ;)
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Lily on July 14, 2011, 06:11:21 AM
Quote from: Icefire on July 13, 2011, 10:50:37 PM
Quote from: daskar666 on July 12, 2011, 07:05:05 PM
I believe it has been stated in Rakkety Tam in the first chapter that the turtles came from somewhere other than the Lands of Ice and Snow.
Also I couldn't help but notice that out of the 18 Redwall books I read so far (currently reading the 19th one, Eulalia) NONE of them take place in winter. Or spring or fall for that matter. There are a few chapters in wintertime in Mossflower and Rakkety Tam but the main story itself ALWAYS takes place during the summer. I'm sort of puzzled by this considering that animals have fur AS WELL as clothes to keep them warm so they should be better off in winter weather than humans. Hibernation could have been an answer except for the fact that in the few chapters that take place in winter no one is hibernating.
The characters are probably thankful that they don't have to go adventuring in the winter. ;D I thought there was one that was set in winter. ??? Maybe it's just that a lot of the introductions are set in winter.
Agreed, it's hard to go questing through snow. It doesn't look like a lot goes on at the Abbey in the Winter, they seem to carry out their chores inside and tell stories at night. That doesn't sound like a particularly interesting book to me!

Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: DanielofRedwall on July 14, 2011, 07:44:24 AM
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 12, 2011, 09:06:34 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 12, 2011, 06:51:02 PM
I want to see a wolverine fight a badger lord paw to paw. No weapons
Well, it's hard to say because the Redwall series badgers are very heavily buffed up, compared to how strong they are in real life...

... but realistically, the wolverine would win. Badgers are pretty tough, but an adult wolverine is tremendously strong and is capable of holding off a wolf in single combat, and is better-equipped, with its jaws, to kill large creatures.

With weapons, of course, since most badgers (such as Boar the Fighter) are incredibly skilled, and probably smarter and more competent fighters than Redwall wolverines, it could go either way.
Not if it's a honey badger... Seriously, check them out on youtube, they are ferocious, they'd smash a wolverine in a fight if it was real life!
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: James Gryphon on July 14, 2011, 08:10:40 AM
Unfortunately, in real life, wolverines are about half again to twice the size of any kind of badger, and are stronger and better-suited towards crushing prey. The wolverine and honey badger are similarly armed in terms of claws, and very well protected by their thick coats, so the decisive factor in a real-life matchup would be their jaw strength, which the wolverine possesses much more of. I'm sorry to say that I think the evidence suggests a wolverine could beat any badger, regardless of its breed or origin. In real life, they have the same durability and fighting spirit as the badger, are better-armed, and possess greater size.

It's kind of a moot point, though, for a Redwall-themed animal matchup, since honey badgers don't exist in Europe, and since they have substantial differences from the badgers we're used to seeing (they almost resemble a skunk more than a "normal" badger ;)).

If the fight was in the Redwall world, I would pick Boar the Fighter, wearing his great armor and wielding his equally impressive broadsword, over Dramz, Gulo, Askor, or any other wolverine that might happen to inhabit the Lands of Ice and Snow, 10 out of 10 times. Boar (or really any Badger Lord, but in my mind Boar especially; you can't beat the original) has the intellect, the skill, and the equipment to take down any single opponent in the Redwall world, and it doesn't hurt that he has unusual size and strength to go with it.

However, I wouldn't take an unnamed, unarmed badger over an unnamed, unarmed wolverine, because the statistics strongly suggest the badger would lose.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: DanielofRedwall on July 19, 2011, 04:48:23 AM
^^

Yeah, good point with the honey badger, but it would be a pretty close fight for most of it.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: White One6193 on August 21, 2011, 09:13:26 PM
Quote from: Osu on July 14, 2011, 12:33:43 AM
I always figured the land of ice and snow was something like Wales, Ireland, or even the arctic circle. One does wonder how a tortoise managed to survive there, though. I'd like to see a book that takes place in the north, there.

And a fight between a wolverine and a badger would be too epic for words! Somebody should write one. Hey. Hey, all you fanfiction authors... ;)

I'll get right on it ;D! I'd also like to see a wolf fight a Redwall badger. EPIC! :o
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Taggerung_of_Redwall on August 21, 2011, 09:26:10 PM
I think the reason wolves are absent (with one exception) from Redwall is the fact that they're just too large. The ridiculous size comparison is overbearing, it'd be like a 60 ft. giant attacking people. Adult grey wolves can reach 62 inches in length, compared to the average six inches of a mouse. I wouldn't rule out jumping over the walls of the Abbey even.
Of course, the difference in size between a mouse and a fox, or wildcat, doesn't seem to be much of a factor. But still, wolves are a good deal larger than foxes and cats.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Eulalia on November 29, 2011, 03:09:14 PM
thinking about it didint it say in the bellmaker that urgan nagru also came from the north so theoretical also the lands of ice and snow
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Shade on June 02, 2013, 11:16:00 AM
No offence to those who think a badger would beat a wolverine, but I think  a wolverine would beat a badger easily. But a honey badger, now thats a different story. Yeah, I think honey badger wins.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on June 02, 2013, 10:40:32 PM
None taken. Zere'z plenty o' pozzible ootcomez zat cound determine a fight, zeveral favourin' boz badgerz an' volverinez.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Mariel on June 15, 2013, 07:57:19 PM
Personally I know close to nothing about the lands of ice and snow,I live in a desert. ::)
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Buzz_Bumble on June 16, 2013, 03:35:08 AM
It's possible to have ice and snow in a desert ... one of the rich Saudi Arabian countries has got a huge building with an inside ski slope, etc. in it. Even here in Auckland, New Zealand where it doesn't snow in the winter (it does snow further south in New Zealand though), there is an indoor ski slope called SnowPlanet (http://www.snowplanet.co.nz/), although I've never been there (like most tourist attractions, it's expensive).  :)
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Mariel on June 29, 2013, 08:23:06 PM
Quote from: Buzz_Bumble on June 16, 2013, 03:35:08 AM
It's possible to have ice and snow in a desert ... one of the rich Saudi Arabian countries has got a huge building with an inside ski slope, etc. in it. Even here in Auckland, New Zealand where it doesn't snow in the winter (it does snow further south in New Zealand though), there is an indoor ski slope called SnowPlanet (http://www.snowplanet.co.nz/), although I've never been there (like most tourist attractions, it's expensive).  :)
Yes it is possible just not likely,personally, I'm glad there isn't much snow where I come from(I hate the cold)
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Buzz_Bumble on June 30, 2013, 03:28:14 AM
Quote from: Mariel on June 29, 2013, 08:23:06 PM
... (I hate the cold)

I hate the heat. Summer here is attrociously bad, I'd hate to live in a desert or equatorial country (Fiji, Hawaii, etc.).  :(
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Captain Tammo on April 22, 2014, 10:13:06 PM
I think I've figured it out! Recently I was on a student exchange program in France (which was loads of fun! I highly recommend doing one if you have the chance!). However on the way there we had a layover in ICELAND. Seeing as I had never been there before, I did some research and read up on it throughout the airport. Quickly I saw what Icelandic people refer to it as over and over... "The land of ice and snow"!

Then it all clicked! Mossflower is based off of Great Britain, so the "lands of ice and snow" may actually be referring to Iceland, seeing as that is what it is commonly referred to! Though wolverines and wolves don't inhabit the island, it still makes sense because Brian only included BRITISH native animals in the books.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Jetthebinturong on April 22, 2014, 10:26:58 PM
Quote from: Mariel on June 15, 2013, 07:57:19 PM
Personally I know close to nothing about the lands of ice and snow,I live in a desert. ::)
Antarctica is a desert.....

I think the Land of Ice and Snow is based off all of Scandinavia not just Iceland
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Jukka the Sling on April 22, 2014, 10:28:41 PM
@Captain Tammo: Never thought of that, but it makes sense!
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Gonff the Mousethief on May 02, 2014, 05:30:35 AM
 :o :o MIND.BLOWN!!!
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Shade on May 02, 2014, 10:34:04 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on April 22, 2014, 10:13:06 PM
I think I've figured it out! Recently I was on a student exchange program in France (which was loads of fun! I highly recommend doing one if you have the chance!). However on the way there we had a layover in ICELAND. Seeing as I had never been there before, I did some research and read up on it throughout the airport. Quickly I saw what Icelandic people refer to it as over and over... "The land of ice and snow"!

Then it all clicked! Mossflower is based off of Great Britain, so the "lands of ice and snow" may actually be referring to Iceland, seeing as that is what it is commonly referred to! Though wolverines and wolves don't inhabit the island, it still makes sense because Brian only included BRITISH native animals in the books.
Apart from that solitary beaver that we never saw again.  ;)
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Jetthebinturong on May 03, 2014, 02:12:10 AM
Beavers WERE native to Britain at the time of the books writing, Brian said in an interview the the solitary beaver represented their dwindling population
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: 321tumbler on May 03, 2014, 02:48:14 AM
I never knew that.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: chaos_Leader on June 02, 2014, 10:35:07 AM
I was actually thinking about this for a while, but never really had the chance to put it forward.

Somewhere or another, wolves exist in the Redwall series' world. Urgan Nagru in "The Bellmaker" has the pelt and skull of a dead wolf, which he got in the Land of Snow and Ice (or so he claims). Size may not be much of a factor for wolves not being written about in the series, since the wolf Urgan Nagru got the pelt/skull from didn't seem too much larger than him, and he was a fox.

Some people here mentioned the Land of Snow and Ice being like Iceland, or other Nordic/Scandinavian areas. It was also mentioned that most of the inhabitants of the setting are native species to the British isles. This actually provides a literary opportunity for the series analogous with history: Wolves as an old Norse/Viking archetype.

Like the old Norsmen compared to the average medieval era Western-European man, Redwall wolves would easily stand quite a bit taller, and be much stronger and tougher than what had been encountered before. Not to mention the wolf pack hunting mentality is easily analogous to the methods of Viking raiders, as well as old Norse societal leadership.

It might be interesting to explore how the Redwall setting would react to a Viking-like threat, how it would respond to unknown opponents that are not at all like the vermin they've fought before. What would they do when wolf raiders pillage easy targets, when they begin to settle in their land and establish a long-term foothold?
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on June 02, 2014, 08:53:33 PM
Hey, chaos! Welcome to the forum! That is a very interesting comparison... I imagine Redwall would do as it does with other vermin bands, i.e. Stand strong and repel attacks...
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Leatho Shellhound on June 03, 2014, 02:52:50 PM
The wolf pelt that Urgan Nagru got was said to have been from a wolf that was frozen dead. Maybe it was a very young wolf, that's why it was so small? Just a thought...
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Cornflower MM on June 28, 2014, 07:45:59 PM
Maybe. Personally, I never really thought about the Lands of Ice and Snow...Even though Rakkety Tam's my favorite book. I'll have to read it again and give y'all my opinion.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Maudie on October 09, 2017, 08:05:04 PM
So, I see that this thread has touched upon the possibility of the Land of Ice and Snow being based on Iceland or Scandinavia, but what if it was based on North America or (more likely) Canada?
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Ashleg on October 09, 2017, 08:14:55 PM
I always thought Ireland.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: a crumb on October 09, 2017, 08:20:25 PM
Hmm. Now I think about it, my interpretation of the lands, based on who we know to be from there, would make it the Redwallian Scandinavia, based on the seafaring wolverines being reminiscent of Viking lords and their followers.

Geographically, based on the very limited description, would I believe place it more to the west of the Redwallian England than just north. But I'd still think Jacques would have medieval Vikings/Scandinavia in mind more than anything.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: asmodeus on October 13, 2017, 05:29:40 PM
We know wolverines come from the land of Ice and Snow, but sables come from another cold place. RUSSIA. Maybe the Sable Quean came from the land of ice and snow too.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Skarzs on October 13, 2017, 05:49:26 PM
Iceland, Greenland, Canada, Scandinavia, Russia. . . All potential origins.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Krantor the Brutal on October 13, 2017, 06:03:50 PM
To find where this place is, we need to gather all the customs of its inhabitants that we given.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: sunflashtheace on February 19, 2018, 01:17:23 PM
I am still miffed that there was no appearance of a living wolf at all, I was dying to see one but there never was I still think that a wolf could beat a badger lord because a wolf would theoretically be bigger than a badger lord.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Skarzs on February 19, 2018, 01:42:54 PM
Indeed. It would make an interesting story.
That and a badger versus a wolverine.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Ashleg on February 22, 2018, 04:53:46 AM
Quote from: The Skarzs on February 19, 2018, 01:42:54 PM
Indeed. It would make an interesting story.
That and a badger versus wolverine.

(https://cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2017/03/0512b752b82b82a7-600x400.jpg)

I wonder who will badger him? *ba dum tashhh*
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: sunflashtheace on February 22, 2018, 08:10:32 PM
or wolf vs wolverine I would pay to see that
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Skarzs on February 22, 2018, 11:44:23 PM
Aye! But we need to see what a wolf could do, first. ;)
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sanddunes on April 22, 2018, 09:58:44 PM
I wander if they're bears as well
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Skarzs on April 22, 2018, 10:51:21 PM
Possible, but there has only been one mention ever of bears in the quote "run like a hare and fight like a bear". There aren't any bears in the UK (to my knowledge) but there are in Scandinavia and the Arctic.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sanddunes on April 23, 2018, 05:48:53 PM
Quote from: The Skarzs on April 22, 2018, 10:51:21 PM
Possible, but there has only been one mention ever of bears in the quote "run like a hare and fight like a bear". There aren't any bears in the UK (to my knowledge) but there are in Scandinavia and the Arctic.

Plus they are to big to fit on a ship
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Ashleg on April 23, 2018, 07:07:29 PM
Says who?

Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Skarzs on April 23, 2018, 10:48:32 PM
It's subjective. Like the size of wolves. Ash. I tend to shrink and grow species to make them more able to interact without certain creatures only having to step on, say, a mouse, and it will die. However, bears would still be absolutely huge.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Ashleg on April 24, 2018, 12:24:17 AM
Even in real life, bears can fit on a boat.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Skarzs on April 24, 2018, 04:59:00 AM
Indeed. They're one of the species I shrink in my mind. Would they fit in a logboat? Probably not. Would they fit on one of the ships like The Pearl Queen? Yes, but they would be confined to the top deck since they would be too tall to go below decks.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Ashleg on April 24, 2018, 07:29:26 PM
But why would you have to shrink them in their mind if they fit in real life? :P Sounds like you grow them in your mind.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Skarzs on April 24, 2018, 08:15:32 PM
More or less. :P Shrink, grow, same thing only different.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sanddunes on April 25, 2018, 11:01:07 AM
Quote from: Ashleg on April 24, 2018, 07:29:26 PM
But why would you have to shrink them in their mind if they fit in real life? :P Sounds like you grow them in your mind.

You realize some of the boats in real life are a lot bigger then the boats in the Redwall world.
If someone in the Redwall world wanted to take a bear they would have to build a boat that could holed an animal that is 8+ feet and close to 1,000 lbs or more plus supplies
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Skarzs on April 25, 2018, 02:16:44 PM
Ten thousand pounds?
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Ashleg on April 25, 2018, 08:25:17 PM
Sounds a bit absurd to me.

I'm not saying bears would fit on some shrew's Logboat. But on a pirate ship? Probably. He might topple a lifeboat but would definitely fit on a pirate ship.

If it was eight or nine feet 10,000 pounds would be... unnaturally obese. The darn thing would be dead.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sanddunes on April 25, 2018, 08:29:51 PM
Quote from: The Skarzs on April 25, 2018, 02:16:44 PM
Ten thousand pounds?

1,000 sorry to many zeros
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Ashleg on April 25, 2018, 09:27:44 PM
Even so, using that logic multiple 8-9 foot tall bears would fit on a pirate ship.

http://www.pirates-privateers.com/what-weight-can-a-pirate-ship-withstand-qr1108.htm (http://www.pirates-privateers.com/what-weight-can-a-pirate-ship-withstand-qr1108.htm)

Let's say that this is the bear bare minimum here. 1,000 pounds is equal to 0.5 tons-- a pirate ship's brig at minimum could hold 90.

Vilu Daskar's ship, as an example, would likely be higher, since it was described as extremely large.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Skarzs on April 25, 2018, 11:05:34 PM
1000 pounds wouldn't be an issue. What I'm thinking about is the height. I don't think there would be a whole lot of room beneath deck for a creature that size.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sanddunes on April 26, 2018, 03:44:14 AM
Quote from: Ashleg on April 25, 2018, 09:27:44 PM
Even so, using that logic multiple 8-9 foot tall bears would fit on a pirate ship.

http://www.pirates-privateers.com/what-weight-can-a-pirate-ship-withstand-qr1108.htm (http://www.pirates-privateers.com/what-weight-can-a-pirate-ship-withstand-qr1108.htm)

Let's say that this is the bear bare minimum here. 1,000 pounds is equal to 0.5 tons-- a pirate ship's brig at minimum could hold 90.

Vilu Daskar's ship, as an example, would likely be higher, since it was described as extremely large.

Okay let's say they build a ship that could hold a bear it would need to be strong enough for the bear not to destroy it because bears are really strong and supplies for at least your crew
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sanddunes on April 26, 2018, 04:11:01 AM
Quote from: The Skarzs on April 25, 2018, 11:05:34 PM
1000 pounds wouldn't be an issue. What I'm thinking about is the height. I don't think there would be a whole lot of room beneath deck for a creature that size.

You right the height will be a lot bigger issue then the weight unless they just bring a bear cub
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Ashleg on April 26, 2018, 05:27:19 AM
Quote from: Sanddunes on April 26, 2018, 03:44:14 AM
Okay let's say they build a ship that could hold a bear it would need to be strong enough for the bear not to destroy it because bears are really strong and supplies for at least your crew

You realize 0.5 means there are at minimum 89.5 TONS more weight the ship can hold.

And the height, well, if you said it would be around 9 feet tall, ships are taller than that. Very much so. The bear might have his head bopping the ceiling if he goes inside or something, but that's it.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sanddunes on April 26, 2018, 05:41:40 AM
Quote from: Ashleg on April 26, 2018, 05:27:19 AM
You realize 0.5 means there are at minimum 89.5 TONS more weight the ship can hold.

And the height, well, if you said it would be around 9 feet tall, ships are taller than that. Very much so. The bear might have his head bopping the ceiling if he goes inside or something, but that's it.

You realize there's a big difference in size between a human and most of the creature in the Redwall world
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Skarzs on April 26, 2018, 07:26:33 AM
It's all up to the reader to decide that, Sand. :)

Quote from: Ashleg on April 26, 2018, 05:27:19 AM
You realize 0.5 means there are at minimum 89.5 TONS more weight the ship can hold.

And the height, well, if you said it would be around 9 feet tall, ships are taller than that. Very much so. The bear might have his head bopping the ceiling if he goes inside or something, but that's it.
Ships are taller than that? I'm. . . Confused.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Ashleg on April 26, 2018, 06:53:55 PM
Quote from: The Skarzs on April 26, 2018, 07:26:33 AM
Ships are taller than that? I'm. . . Confused.

Have you seen pirate ships?
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Skarzs on April 26, 2018, 07:59:58 PM
Yes.
How many decks are you thinking? I'm thinking four levels: Top deck, living quarters, oar slaves deck, and the bilge.
To put it in perspective, the average height of residential ceilings is 7 feet, ten inches.
I'm not certain, but I don't think lower decks had any more head room than that.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Ashleg on April 26, 2018, 11:09:32 PM
I'm not talking about each deck-- I am talking about the whole ship.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Jetthebinturong on April 27, 2018, 12:17:12 AM
But the height of the whole ship is completely irrelevant if you're talking about whether someone's short enough to fit on it.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Ashleg on April 27, 2018, 12:20:29 AM
Could go on all fours.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Skarzs on April 27, 2018, 03:12:15 AM
Perhaps. But I think the top deck would be the preference.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sanddunes on April 27, 2018, 03:33:35 AM
Quote from: The Skarzs on April 26, 2018, 07:26:33 AM
It's all up to the reader to decide that, Sand. :)
Ships are taller than that? I'm. . . Confused.

think it's more like it's depends on the writer because in the Pearl of Luthra seals destroyed a pirate fleet and some bears eat seal especially polar bears
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: WUMASTER on August 31, 2018, 08:24:43 PM
I really wished there was a book about the lands of ice and snow, or a map of the place. I do think it is not directly north of Mossflower, as I believe a map showed that Mossflower has a north coast. It is northwest across the Great Sea, past Isle Terramort and Riftgard. I sure wanted to see what it was like, and maybe even read a book about what events went on over there.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sebias of Redwall on March 25, 2019, 07:18:20 PM
Do you think it's a part of the mainland or an island?
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Tungro on March 25, 2019, 07:21:31 PM
I would think it would be part of the mainland, but it might be possible that it was an island
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sebias of Redwall on March 25, 2019, 07:29:58 PM
That's kinda what I thought too...Unless...Brain Jakes might've based it off of Greenland.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Witessss on March 25, 2019, 07:52:59 PM
perhaps..
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sebias of Redwall on March 25, 2019, 08:55:00 PM
I wonder who controlled the Land of Snow and Ice, the wolves or wolverines?
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Witessss on March 25, 2019, 08:59:21 PM
I would assume the wolves had migrated (died out, the like) by the time the wolverines arrived. or maybe the wolverines ate them instead. ah, the possibilities.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sebias of Redwall on March 31, 2019, 07:27:19 PM
Yup. Food for fanfic I guess.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: The Skarzs on March 31, 2019, 09:55:21 PM
Many possibilities.

One theory I heard is that the lands of ice and snow are mostly accessible at some times of the year by land, and the rest by boat, like the tides change. This would allow ships to go through to the Eastern sea (like where Marshank was) without having to go around a huge landmass. Because if the sea continued around the known land (that is, the land where Martin the Warrior took place), then the LoIaS would either have to be an island, or it wouldn't exist, or it would be considerably smaller than one might think )
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Grond on April 04, 2019, 06:03:26 PM
Quote from: Sebias of Redwall on March 25, 2019, 08:55:00 PM
I wonder who controlled the Land of Snow and Ice, the wolves or wolverines?

It is possible that both species where fairly rare, like badgers are in the rest of the series. You never see an army of badgers like you do the other species. They are either solitary, in a pair or family, or leaders (i.e. Badger Lord) over other species. Possibly the same applies to wolves and wolverines in the Land of Ice and Snow. I assume whoever raised the bigger and more powerful army would be in control...
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Tungro on April 04, 2019, 06:07:44 PM
It would be interesting if there was a book about a wolf warlord and a wolverine warlord fighting for control of the Lands of Ice and Snow. Possibly a fanfic?
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sebias of Redwall on April 14, 2019, 11:47:57 PM
I might consider it... We'll have to see though.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: clunylooney on April 17, 2020, 07:29:50 PM
Quote from: DanielofRedwall on July 14, 2011, 07:44:24 AM
Not if it's a honey badger... Seriously, check them out on youtube, they are ferocious, they'd smash a wolverine in a fight if it was real life!

I beg to differ! Honey badgers are insane and awesome animals, being able to scare away lions and resist poison from mambas. But, Wolverines hunt down elk. ELK. Have you seen how big an elk is and then look at a wolverine? I's ridiculous! Not to mention people once found the body of a polar bear (which is the largest bear in the world) that was killed by a wolverine! It would be close, but IMO Wolverine would win.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sanddunes on April 17, 2020, 08:09:16 PM
Quote from: clunylooney on April 17, 2020, 07:29:50 PM
Quote from: DanielofRedwall on July 14, 2011, 07:44:24 AM
Not if it's a honey badger... Seriously, check them out on youtube, they are ferocious, they'd smash a wolverine in a fight if it was real life!

I beg to differ! Honey badgers are insane and awesome animals, being able to scare away lions and resist poison from mambas. But, Wolverines hunt down elk. ELK. Have you seen how big an elk is and then look at a wolverine? I's ridiculous! Not to mention people once found the body of a polar bear (which is the largest bear in the world) that was killed by a wolverine! It would be close, but IMO Wolverine would win.

To bad there's not many wolverines in the Redwall series
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: clunylooney on April 18, 2020, 12:02:53 AM
Quote from: Sanddunes on April 17, 2020, 08:09:16 PM
Quote from: clunylooney on April 17, 2020, 07:29:50 PM
Quote from: DanielofRedwall on July 14, 2011, 07:44:24 AM
Not if it's a honey badger... Seriously, check them out on youtube, they are ferocious, they'd smash a wolverine in a fight if it was real life!

I beg to differ! Honey badgers are insane and awesome animals, being able to scare away lions and resist poison from mambas. But, Wolverines hunt down elk. ELK. Have you seen how big an elk is and then look at a wolverine? I's ridiculous! Not to mention people once found the body of a polar bear (which is the largest bear in the world) that was killed by a wolverine! It would be close, but IMO Wolverine would win.

To bad there's not many wolverines in the Redwall series
JFTR the badgers in the Redwall series are European badgers. Not Honey badgers. If a Wolverine fought a European Badger than the Wolverine would have an even larger chance of winning. Wolverine vs American badger would be interesting. WOlverine would probably win though. Wolverines are just crazy.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Grond on April 27, 2020, 10:23:52 PM
Quote from: clunylooney on April 17, 2020, 07:29:50 PM
Quote from: DanielofRedwall on July 14, 2011, 07:44:24 AM
Not if it's a honey badger... Seriously, check them out on youtube, they are ferocious, they'd smash a wolverine in a fight if it was real life!

I beg to differ! Honey badgers are insane and awesome animals, being able to scare away lions and resist poison from mambas. But, Wolverines hunt down elk. ELK. Have you seen how big an elk is and then look at a wolverine? I's ridiculous! Not to mention people once found the body of a polar bear (which is the largest bear in the world) that was killed by a wolverine! It would be close, but IMO Wolverine would win.

Wolverines are certainly extremly powerful and vicious for their size, as are most mustelids. However, there are major problems or important background information with the stories of wolverines killing animals the size of elk and bears. I would assume the elk a wolverine may have killed was likely one that was exhausted and near death beforehand. In the winter time and espeially in deep snow large ungulates like elk really struggle. Due to how small their feet are relative to their body-they sink into the snow- which makes it exhausting for them to walk around. Plus it is difficult to forage and browse under deep snow so they are malnourished as well. Given the size of a wolverine's feet relative to its body, they are pretty much on snow shoes, and can walk on top of the snow. Which gives them a huge advantage and winter time is the best time of year for them as there is plenty of carrion around to feast on and they can get around on the snow easily. I would suspect that elk in question was likely  on death's doorstep as a winter kill, before the wolverine finished it off.
Title: Re: Lands of Ice and Snow
Post by: Sanddunes on April 29, 2020, 02:48:04 AM
Quote from: Grond on April 27, 2020, 10:23:52 PM
Quote from: clunylooney on April 17, 2020, 07:29:50 PM
Quote from: DanielofRedwall on July 14, 2011, 07:44:24 AM
Not if it's a honey badger... Seriously, check them out on youtube, they are ferocious, they'd smash a wolverine in a fight if it was real life!

I beg to differ! Honey badgers are insane and awesome animals, being able to scare away lions and resist poison from mambas. But, Wolverines hunt down elk. ELK. Have you seen how big an elk is and then look at a wolverine? I's ridiculous! Not to mention people once found the body of a polar bear (which is the largest bear in the world) that was killed by a wolverine! It would be close, but IMO Wolverine would win.

Wolverines are certainly extremly powerful and vicious for their size, as are most mustelids. However, there are major problems or important background information with the stories of wolverines killing animals the size of elk and bears. I would assume the elk a wolverine may have killed was likely one that was exhausted and near death beforehand. In the winter time and espeially in deep snow large ungulates like elk really struggle. Due to how small their feet are relative to their body-they sink into the snow- which makes it exhausting for them to walk around. Plus it is difficult to forage and browse under deep snow so they are malnourished as well. Given the size of a wolverine's feet relative to its body, they are pretty much on snow shoes, and can walk on top of the snow. Which gives them a huge advantage and winter time is the best time of year for them as there is plenty of carrion around to feast on and they can get around on the snow easily. I would suspect that elk in question was likely  on death's doorstep as a winter kill, before the wolverine finished it off.
Don't know about bears or elks but they'll go after reindeer
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3SOjmJG73UI