I've always wondered something...
Why did Bella leave Brockhall and take up residency at Redwall Abbey? Sure all of her 'friends' went there per se, but Brockhall was an ancestral home of the Badger Lords of Mossflower- that's kind of like a kick in the teeth to years of tradition.... It would be like the Queen of England shunning Windsor Castle or even Balmoral. I also find it interesting that no other "Redwall" book uses Brockhall post Mossflower. I mean you think they would have stumbled upon it at some point...
What are your thoughts?
Well, the Bella and Brockhall and Redwall thing is all very confusing. Because in The Legend of Luke she is living at Redwall, and in The Outcast of Redwall she is living at Redwall, but in the prologue and Epilogue of Mossflower she is living at Brockhall, and that is after the events of TLOL and before the events of TOOR, so it really confuses me.
I think Bella moved from Brockhall because all her friends were there. I wish she would have stayed ther then they could build allies with Brockhall.
Quote from: Free Thought on May 31, 2013, 06:51:52 PM
I've always wondered something...
Why did Bella leave Brockhall and take up residency at Redwall Abbey? Sure all of her 'friends' went there per se, but Brockhall was an ancestral home of the Badger Lords of Mossflower- that's kind of like a kick in the teeth to years of tradition.... It would be like the Queen of England shunning Windsor Castle or even Balmoral. I also find it interesting that no other "Redwall" book uses Brockhall post Mossflower. I mean you think they would have stumbled upon it at some point...
What are your thoughts?
I just looked through
Mossflower and couldn't find any definitively given reason for why Bella left. But it might have something to do with the very things that make it seem unnatural for Bella to leave. Brockhall was an ancestral home--it had belonged to the family Bella came from. It was also a seat of power. The Brock family, as you've said, were Lords of Mossflower; Bella literally says that Boar left when he tired of ruling Mossflower, and that Barkstripe ruled in his stead.
By the time Redwall is being built, two significant things have changed in Bella's life (well... ha. O.k. Thousands of things have changed, I'm sure, but two important ones as far as all of this is concerned). For one, Boar is dead, her mate is dead, and she has no way of knowing that their only son is still alive--she actually confides in Germaine near the beginning of
Mossflower that she thinks Sunflash is dead. In her mind, then, her family line is broken. So, while Brockhall is an ancestral home, it is Bella's belief that there isn't anyone who's going to be able to come and take her place.
...Unless she's willing to wait and trust that someone outside of her family or some sort of more distant relative is going to show up one day, much in the same way that many different families have ruled Salamandastron. But I think that gets into the second change for Bella. Once Germaine and the survivors from Loamhedge come to Mossflower, there's an opportunity for the "ruling" of Mossflower to be thought of in a different way, especially after all of the other woodlanders come together and overthrow Kotir. There isn't a family that needs to be the "center of power" anymore.
Before the events of Mossflower, everybody's living in several separate homes, but in the same land. And so long as everyone is of the same land, it seems natural that a central source of strength and guidance would come to the fore in that land. The creatures of Mossflower look to the Brock family for that source. All the while, they live autonomously. They know Brockhall; they depend on Brockhall. But they are not
of Brockhall.
After everybody unites to overthrow Kotir, though, I think it becomes really hard to go back to thinking of themselves as separate families/tribes and so on. And the creation of Redwall solidifies that; all of these friends suddenly have a huge, centralized place to live in and cultivate their friendships more strongly. Beforehand, everyone can say they are of Mossflower, and that is true. Then they get to say they are all of Mossflower, and that really, really means something. And then they get to make the connection even more obvious--they are all of Redwall. Not just one land, but one home.
Brockhall isn't necessary anymore. Some families will continue to live apart from Redwall, of course, but probably (I could be wrong again) not to the fragmented level of
Mossflower. And even these families don't need one specific ruling family to guide them anymore, because they have a massive Abbey, filled with a number of different kinds of creatures.
So, if the purposes of Brockhall are firstly to be a home for a family which Bella believes has died out, and secondly to be a center for a scattered community which has since come together in a huge, huge way, I can see why tradition wouldn't be a strong enough reason for her to stay. As you mentioned, all of her friends did go to Redwall, and she would then be living apart from them. Another thing--although Mossflower didn't need a ruling family anymore, I'm sure the woodlanders were still grateful for Bella's wisdom and guidance. I feel like she'd want to be right there in the Abbey with them to give them what she could. Part of this, as simple as it is, might have been the convenience of it all--beforehand, it made a lot more sense for the Brock family to stay in one place so all of the scattered families could know where to find them when they needed advice. But so long as the families of Mossflower were centralized at Redwall, it would suddenly make a lot of sense for Bella to come and live among them rather than for individuals to make journeys to her over and over.
I feel like, with modern England, the ruling family can afford to stay wherever they wish because their country is populated by an enormous sum of people; it doesn't seem likely that they would serve the people of England worse or better in many parts of the country than they serve the people of England living where they do. So they may as well stick with tradition.
In regards to Brian Jacques mentioning Brockhall again, I could be totally misunderstanding you here, but a number of characters do stumble on it in
Triss--it becomes a lair for a trio of adders. And then again in
The Sable Quean, the main villain uses it as her headquarters, where she hides the woodland children that her vermin kidnap.
Quote from: Mask on May 31, 2013, 07:26:29 PM
Well, the Bella and Brockhall and Redwall thing is all very confusing. Because in The Legend of Luke she is living at Redwall, and in The Outcast of Redwall she is living at Redwall, but in the prologue and Epilogue of Mossflower she is living at Brockhall, and that is after the events of TLOL and before the events of TOOR, so it really confuses me.
Hmm... I've looked through the prologue and epilogue of
Mossflower out of curiosity, and what I'm getting from it is that Bella tells the story of
Mossflower from Redwall's gatehouse rather than Brockhall. Maybe I'm missing something?
Maybe Bella has Redwall Abbey as her winter home and Brockhall as her summer home. ;)
Actully, we do see Brockhall after Mossflower. It appears in Triss and The Sable Quean.
Yeah, but that isn't "post Mossflower" as Free Thought puts it, meaning, I believe, in Bella's lifetime.
Quote from: Mask on June 02, 2013, 02:32:25 AM
Yeah, but that isn't "post Mossflower" as Free Thought puts it, meaning, I believe, in Bella's lifetime.
It is talked about in the book
Lord Brocktree, where Brocktree says that he left Brock hall b/c Boar was growing up and there wasn't enough room for two male badgers.
Yeah I forgot about the "vermin" use for Brockhall. I was more referring to "woodlander" use- sorry, I wasn't that specific. I think Blazemane has valid points about Mossflower evolving past a lordship and into more of a... well, whatever Redwall's "ruling" status could be classified as.
All in all, I just thought it was weird.
Remember it said Cluny attacked Brockhall some time ago in Redwall? Bella must have escaped to Redwall.
Quote from: PluggFiretail on June 05, 2013, 03:38:41 PM
Remember it said Cluny attacked Brockhall some time ago in Redwall? Bella must have escaped to Redwall.
There are some problems with that:
1. Bella died long before Cluny was born.
2. In
Mossflower, it said that she left Brockhall to join her friends at Redwall.
3. It would be pointless for Cluny to attack Brockhall because it would be deserted and run-down.
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on June 05, 2013, 11:08:13 PM
Quote from: PluggFiretail on June 05, 2013, 03:38:41 PM
Remember it said Cluny attacked Brockhall some time ago in Redwall? Bella must have escaped to Redwall.
There are some problems with that:
1. Bella died long before Cluny was born.
2. In Mossflower, it said that she left Brockhall to join her friends at Redwall.
3. It would be pointless for Cluny to attack Brockhall because it would be deserted and run-down.
Aye
That's very strange
Seems like a bit of a waste to leave Brockhall to ruin, it was an excellent hiding place, it easily could have been useful in a number of ways.
Quote from: LT Sandpaw on November 22, 2014, 02:44:04 PM
Seems like a bit of a waste to leave Brockhall to ruin, it was an excellent hiding place, it easily could have been useful in a number of ways.
Yeah, true.
EDIT: I found in Triss, in the map I see snakes coming out of Brockhall
Have you read Triss, Sam?
They said in Lord Brocktree that he came from Brockhall, through I haven't read in a while.
In the Sable Quean, Vilaya claims Brockhall and names it Althier(the lair.) Mostly it is wrecked, and the entrance is lost and destroyed. So sad. :'( :'(
After the events in Triss, I feel it would have made sense for the Redwallers to take some care over the historic site. . . Heh, if they had, the Sable Quean might not have gotten so much power. I mean, it's a massive place, and while it was dilapidated and aged, the moles could have done some of their magnificent work and gotten it into a place where creatures could go for whatever reason.
Quote from: Sagetip, the hare on December 17, 2014, 02:43:03 PM
They said in Lord Brocktree that he came from Brockhall, through I haven't read in a while.
Right, but Lord Brocktree was Bella's grandfather. He left Brockhall to his young son Boar during the time of
Lord Brocktree, and later Boar the Fighter followed his father to become the next ruler of Salamandastron. His daughter Bella ruled Brockhall with her husband Barkstripe, who was killed in the first Corim rebellion against Kotir. Their young son Sunflash ran away from Brockhall after his father was killed and Bella presumed he was dead during the events of
Mossflower, until reunited with him in
Outcast of Redwall. By this time, Bella is living in the Abbey. Why she chose to make her home inside the Abbey, though, is curious. After Kotir fell a time of peace fell over Mossflower, in which the Abbey was constructed, which lasted (presumably) the several generations are known to have passed between the events of
Legend of Luke (books 1 and 3) and
Outcast of Redwall. She would have been safe living outside of the Abbey and visiting her friends on occasion, and while it makes sense that she would have wanted to live out her elderly days at the Abbey, it would likewise make sense had Brockhall been kept up by her fellow Abbeybeasts by her request or out of respect for her and Brockhall's role in the Abbey's history (though we don't know that is wasn't). It is unsurprising that in the countless generations that pass between
Outcast and
Triss (which is practically the entire Medieval age, as pre-
Outcast is correlates strongly with a sort of Dark Ages and post-
Triss becomes increasingly Renaissance), the location of Brockhall is forgotten and care of it ends.
Quote from: The Skarzs on April 02, 2015, 12:55:08 AM
After the events in Triss, I feel it would have made sense for the Redwallers to take some care over the historic site. . . Heh, if they had, the Sable Quean might not have gotten so much power. I mean, it's a massive place, and while it was dilapidated and aged, the moles could have done some of their magnificent work and gotten it into a place where creatures could go for whatever reason.
I very much agree with this. Though a sense of how much time passes between
Triss and
Sable Quean is not given, care of Brockhall would have given the Abbeybeasts a great and safe place for Mossflower excursions, and might have enabled them to keep it hidden or protected from Vilaya.
It never mentioned Brockhall in Legend of Luke, which is odd because that is where they would most likely have taken up residence when the abbey was being built, and it wouldn't be natural for everyone to just up and leave a place they are so familiar and comfortable with as Brockhall.
I mention Legend of Luke because books 1 and 3 happen so closely after the events of Mossflower (I presume 4 or 8 seasons after the fall of Kotir) that it seemed sensible to pay attention only to the larger gap of time between Legend of Luke and Outcast. I seem to recall (though it's been some time, so fact-check me) a mention in Mossflower that with the addition of the mice from Loamhedge and the freed slaves from the Bloodwake, the population living within Brockhall had grown too large to be comfortably accommodated, and Abbess Germaine's idea for Redwall was as a new Abbey for her mice as well as a home and place of peace for those who had suffered in slavery or lived spread across Mossflower Woods before Tsarmina's rule. It is surprising, though, that Brockhall becomes so quickly forgotten, considering its value to Bella, its enormous role in freeing Mossflower, and ultimately its role the creation of Redwall.
Actually, the Abbess Germaine showed Columbine here Abbey blueprints before the additional Bloodwake/Wuddship slave army, so she already had plans written up before arriving at Mossflower. Brockhall's overpopulation may have caused some of it, but Germaine had her own ideas.
Don't forget that there was also Moledeep and the otter holts for the woodlanders to live in in addition to Brockhall. Besides, after the eviction of the vermin from the area, settling in the forest wouldn't be too difficult, so "overpopulation" wouldn't have been much of an issue.
Quote from: Free Thought on May 31, 2013, 06:51:52 PM
I've always wondered something...
Why did Bella leave Brockhall and take up residency at Redwall Abbey? Sure all of her 'friends' went there per se, but Brockhall was an ancestral home of the Badger Lords of Mossflower- that's kind of like a kick in the teeth to years of tradition.... It would be like the Queen of England shunning Windsor Castle or even Balmoral. I also find it interesting that no other "Redwall" book uses Brockhall post Mossflower. I mean you think they would have stumbled upon it at some point...
What are your thoughts?
WHAT? They metion Brockhall many times after that. Having it as a huge roll in Triss and The Sable Quean.
Quote from: Kitsune on June 05, 2013, 03:38:41 PM
Remember it said Cluny attacked Brockhall some time ago in Redwall? Bella must have escaped to Redwall.
Ummmmmmmmmmmm. What?