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Author Topic: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates  (Read 3452 times)

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Jetthebinturong

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Re: Vulpuz
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2015, 09:00:23 PM »

Key phrase being "Pagan-like".

Worshiping a Devil is not Pagan-like. Perhaps you mean they perform Pagan-like rituals in their worship? Granted I don't know whether such rituals exist or what they might be, but it makes more sense than how I'm interpreting what you say.

I rather think Vulpuz is more like an ancestral spirit from some kind of tribal religion.
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Belffelyne Hare

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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2015, 09:02:34 PM »

Exactly. Hence him only being mentioned once in the series.

All other vermin refer to a "Devil", but never to Vulpuz.
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The Skarzs

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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2015, 09:09:04 PM »

 Okay, paganism is the worship of any thing other than God. Worshiping a devil is pretty much the real-world example of paganism.

And by the way, I said "Pagan-LIKE". Similar. Relatable. I didn't say they worship Vulpuz, which is why I didn't say a definitive "pagan". Savvy? He may not be a devil, but he's the closest thing to one the series has.
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Jetthebinturong

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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2015, 10:38:21 PM »

 Okay, paganism is the worship of any thing other than God. Worshiping a devil is pretty much the real-world example of paganism.
No, that's the definition if you want to be disparaging or offensive.

A Pagan is a member of a religious, spiritual, or cultural community based on the worship of nature or the earth; a neopagan.
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Belffelyne Hare

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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2015, 11:01:54 PM »

*sigh*
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Hickory

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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2015, 03:31:03 PM »

Same thoughts here. I saw your other thread, sah, quite a theory. The problem with Vulpuz being the Devil is that the Devil (satan), is opposite of God, but woodlanders don't have a God. That increases the chances of Vulpuz having once been "mortal".
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Belffelyne Hare

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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2015, 08:08:47 PM »

Aye.
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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2017, 02:06:38 AM »

The Dark Forest and Hellgates had been referenced by many different characters in many different books.Both of these were places were talked about by vermin and good beasts of various affiliations and living in very different temporal frames. Earlier on in the series the only mention of any afterlife was the Dark Forest, and it seems both vermin and good beasts went there upon death.  This indicates some widespread and prolonged belief in these 2 afterlifes in the Redwall series. Later on, I think in Mariel of Redwall, the sea rats talk about Hellgates and it is referenced in later books. Neither of these places feature as heavily in later books.

Vulpuz however is mentioned only by one seer in one book. Which indicates that he is more so some kind of deity or mythical figure for the Juskabor than for all vermin. As he is not even mentioned by the Juskarath- meaning he is probably not even worshipped by all the Juska tries even...
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Jukka the Sling

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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2017, 11:35:51 PM »

I'm rereading Mariel of Redwall, and something jumped out at me.  On page 101 (American softcover), Gabool says, "Graypatch.  There's a name for the Dark One's book."  Obviously this a reference to some sort of demonic figure, which could be either a generic devil guy or maybe Vulpuz, assuming belief in Vulpuz is not just a Juska thing.  Thoughts?
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Ashleg

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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2017, 11:36:45 PM »

That may be Vulpuz!
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Jukka the Sling

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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2017, 08:12:52 PM »

:D  I'm really fascinated by any references to religious belief throughout the series.  Gabool repeatedly says 'hell' in his swearing, more so than I remember anyone else doing (unless I've just forgotten a lot).  I'm wondering now if most vermin share the same religious beliefs, and if they're just superstition or actually based on evidence.
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Grond

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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2017, 02:34:37 AM »

:D  I'm really fascinated by any references to religious belief throughout the series.  Gabool repeatedly says 'hell' in his swearing, more so than I remember anyone else doing (unless I've just forgotten a lot).  I'm wondering now if most vermin share the same religious beliefs, and if they're just superstition or actually based on evidence.

There is a belief in the Dark Forest shared by everyone (especially in the earliest books). Hellgates is described as a place by different vermin factions in different time periods. But Vulpuz seems to be a Juska or more specifically Juskabor belief even since nobody else references him.

As for an afterlife the fact that the spirit of Martin the Warrior, most prominently, but of others as well is able to give accurate advice consistently to beasts living at times well after the character's death (and previously unaware of Martin's existence for example) would attest to it existing. 
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LordTBT

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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #57 on: November 26, 2017, 12:58:35 AM »

This is our article on the afterlife.

http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Forest
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Cornflower MM

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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2017, 04:02:41 PM »

I do seem to recall several instances of Vulpuz in the series, not just from the Juska. Perhaps I'm wrong, having not gotten past the first five chapters of a Redwall book in years, but I swear there's been other books than just Taggerung.

And yes, Hellgates has been described in several of the books, by several vermin and a few goodbeasts if (again) I'm recalling correctly.
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a crumb

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Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2017, 04:38:54 PM »

Hellgates is held to be believed by both vermin and goodbeasts, and gets mentioned a lot. But Vulpuz was definitely only used by Ermath, Ruggan Bor's seer.


I find it very doubtful that Vulpuz is widespread. It's very believable it's a Juskabor-specific* thing, not even Juska as a whole. Jacques liked to use Latin names for things quite a few times, and usually as the very thing it is (Lutra, Korvusa, Reguba ect.). Vulpuz being as close to the Latin word for fox as it is is hardly a coincidence, especially in conjunction with Ermath implying Ruggan Bor is spiritually more powerful since his fox blood is related to the fox blood of some sort of powerful spiritual being. For propaganda purposes, it would obviously be very useful for Ruggan Bor to have his followers think he's spiritually endowed. Of course if you're a fox warlord you'd want the "god" to be a fox. And it's useful for Ermath, so she has another avenue to flatter her ruler.

Of course, we only see two Juska seers: Grissoul and Ermath, and both are foxes. Maybe it is Juska-wide thing, and all the seers of the tribes have to be foxes?
I don't see all vermin randomly believing it's a fox that runs the afterlife, though. Why? Slagar might love that, sure, but why would all the rats and stoats and such?

In any case, I also don't think it'd surprising if it's just a Juska tribe with the only reference to such a spiritual concept. Of every group we ever see in Redwall canon, they're the most spiritual group there is. Which is ironic, given there's a literal Abbey not too far away.



*(I would like to note that Firefox wanted to spellcheck correct this to "Khabarovsk-specific")
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