Redwall Abbey

Brian Jacques' Works (Spoilers) => History, Legends and Myths => Topic started by: The Skarzs on February 03, 2015, 04:24:23 AM

Title: Spears
Post by: The Skarzs on February 03, 2015, 04:24:23 AM
There are plenty of topics on weapons on here, but I want this topic to be solely focused on the highly underrated weapon: the spear. (This includes javelins, pikes, and the like.)
I feel that this should be read and considered by those who enjoy writing fan fictions, for their battles, and also for those who participate in the roleplaying games.


Spears are extremely underrated, being portrayed as specifically throwing weapons that are clumsy because of their length or are useless against a sword; it often is unappealing because of its rather dull appearance. The fact of the matter is that spears have been the most widely-used weapon in history. Yes, swords were used everywhere, but they did not take the same basic shape that spears did: a bit of pointed metal on the end of a stick. That simple. That was why they were so widely used: they were extremely effective, and they were simple to make.

Now, spears can be used in more than a few ways: making quick little jabs, pushing enemies back at a safe distance, and throwing them, all the while able to be protected by a shield.
Spears are effective for jabbing because the leverage one has far back on the shaft with the other hand further up allows for great control and swift movement by the user. In this way one can get through gaps in armor, hit a body twice a second with great damage, and parry other weapons out of the way.
Another reason they are so effective is because they can keep enemies far away from the user and still be able to fight. As long as the user is relatively practiced in the use of the spear, he would be able to stop people from getting close in where he is vulnerable. Another small weapon might also be held for such cases.
Another advantage that a spear has is being able to be held overhand or underhand. This way one can get under or over defenses when necessary. When held underhand the spear is good for pushing and making hard thrusts. Overhand they can be used over the top of a shield, or be thrown if need be.

Spears are not flimsy. A properly made spear's haft is hefty and robust, and it would take quite the blow of a sword to cut it in half, especially if it is made of a dense wood like ash. The same is with axes: the wooden haft is hardly going to be sliced through when both opponents' weapons are moving around. Just because it gets hit does not mean it is going to break. (This is relevant for both opponents; one cannot hack the weapon in half, and the other shouldn't have to worry too much about his weapon being rendered useless.)

There are many adaptations of the spear: the javelin, mostly meant for throwing, the pike, meant for thrusting at a distance, the pole arm, meant for long hits, the "boar" spear with the flutes on the sides to prevent the point being driven further than the user wants, etc. Each are utilized for fighting, and each are extremely effective. One can easily hold off two opponents when wielding a spear, as demonstrated here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LUJ-IMknsN0 .

The spear should not be underestimated.

Hopefully I have offered some help to those who read this, as I want to put a little more realism into people's works, be it in writing or in playing.
Feel free to share your thoughts.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: James Gryphon on February 03, 2015, 05:08:30 AM
I've done some research on this sort of thing in the past, most recently when I started developing the fan board game, to see whether or not it would be worthwhile to have distinct units (some using swords, some with spears, etc).

What I discovered was that, historically, swords were intended to be sidearms. The Greeks and Macedonians used large formations of spear-carrying infantry. The Roman legionaries, who are known for their use of the gladius, probably used them mostly after their other weapon, the pilum (which functioned as both javelin and spear) was unavailable (whether because it had been thrown or because they were too close to their opponent). The Swiss pikemen and Landsknechts dominated late medieval Europe. Even the most famous of swordsmen, the knights, relied on the lance as their main weapon -- the sword only came into play afterwards, if the lance broke or couldn't get the job done. Some knights even forwent swords entirely and used clubs or maces, which doesn't attest to the alleged unparalleled performance of bladed weapons.

The fact of the matter is that if you have a historical army before gunpowder, the majority of your infantry should be carrying some kind of polearm, as this was a tried and proven way to conduct war.

The reason why I think spears are unpopular while swords reign supreme, in fiction, then, is that the spear is known, whether it should be or not, as a group weapon. When you think of a spear, you think of a large massed formation, like the phalanx or the pikemen I mentioned. When you think of a sword, many things might come to mind, but they're most likely all about an individual -- whether a classical warrior, or a dragon-slaying knight, or a Renaissance fencer.

Well, stories are normally about individuals, and the writer wants to create a dramatic situation involving the prowess of their single character. Duels and single combats are considered a great way of making that happens, and in that specific situation, of a close-combat fight, the sword has normally been considered the weapon of choice. So, you end up with legendary sword-fighters, while spears are relegated to the teeming masses.

None of this is to say that swords are useless; that's clearly ridiculous. They wouldn't have used them if they weren't good for something. That use would seem to be close combat, though; the scenario that readily attempts to come to mind when someone thinks of swords vs. spears, with swords being used instead of spears and having an army of guys armed only with swords wipe out an army of guys armed only with spears is not realistic.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on February 03, 2015, 12:13:36 PM
Some people (My former best friend) thought that a katana could slice leather armour into two with one slice. Ridiculous, how some katana fanboys are. A well aimed spear stab with enough force behind it could slay(or severely injure) a man wearing leather armour and a sword. And according to popular belief, a chop of a sword or axe would cut a polearm (or axe) shaft into two. They do not. A sword cut with all the force one could muster might make a severe dent into a polearm. And then that man would be dead because he was tired and his opponent had a sidearm.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Hickory on February 03, 2015, 03:11:43 PM
Hehehe... I'm thinking of Razzi, when he used the brass spear for a rudder pin...
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Rusvul on February 03, 2015, 05:17:43 PM
   Swords are better than spears. Shortspears are one handed and deal 1d6 damage, longswords are one handed and deal 1d8. Spears are two handed and deal 1d8, greatswords are two handed and deal 2d6. Longspears are also two handed, and deal 1d8, and can attack a foe 10ft away, but they can't attack a foe that is 5ft away.

Title: Re: Spears
Post by: The Skarzs on February 03, 2015, 06:26:44 PM
. . . Nerd.

There is no such things as a "better killing weapon", nor the "best" weapon. Swords are obviously far better for cutting than a spear will ever be, but a sword cannot be used to keep an enemy far away from you, and a sword cannot be used to stab someone when you're grappling with them with your faces pressed against each other. That's where a dagger will come in. There are weapons that are better at their appropriate uses, long range, medium, short, but they all will kill.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Jetthebinturong on February 03, 2015, 07:31:59 PM
The reason spears are not commonly used in fanfiction and fiction in general is because they are boring, you cannot have an exciting fight with a spear, virtually any other weapon is better for fiction because they have more maneuverability than spears, there is only one attack you can do with a spear which is stabbing, spears can block and I guess you can hit people with the butt, but they do very little else. I'm not saying spears shouldn't be used in fiction because they should, just not for the main character.

Also James, pila is the plural, the singular is pilum.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: The Skarzs on February 03, 2015, 07:42:24 PM
It's more for writers to consider if they want to be realistic. I really have no problem with swords being used in abundance because the fights are more interesting.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: LT Sandpaw on February 03, 2015, 08:02:42 PM
This is actually very simple, the fact is battles were very close combat oriented and there's no room to swing a sword at all. Pressed from all sides by thousands of other men no one is about to do anything effective with a sword while spears daggers and other close combat weapons held the advantage. You might say a spear isn't a close combat weapon but it can be used as such.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Hickory on February 03, 2015, 08:42:58 PM
Don't forget javelins, the best propelled and close-combat weapon ever!
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Rusvul on February 03, 2015, 10:21:55 PM
Nope. Javelins only deal 1d6, and they have less than half the range of a crossbow.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Hickory on February 03, 2015, 11:22:25 PM
*makes grumpy face*
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: LT Sandpaw on February 04, 2015, 12:19:58 AM

Wat are you talking about? weapons aren't graded on a damage ratting, it's how skilled you are with such weapon and how well you maintain your weapon. The amount of damage dealt by a specific weapon is where you land your blow and how much force you put behind it.

Are you trolling?
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: James Gryphon on February 04, 2015, 01:32:51 AM
He's going on about D&D, which, I might point out, is not really related to this topic, given that this is the Redwall History, Legends and Myths discussion forum, as opposed to Cavern Hole or the Cellars.

The comment that spears are 'boring' actually put the idea in my mind of writing a spear duel; the only trouble is that I have to have a lot more motivation than just being challenged to something, so the duel will probably never be written.

Since I brought up the Greek phalanx and the Roman legions, here's an interesting article (http://www.ancientbattles.com/WAB_Successors/Phalanx_vs_Legion.htm) (in the context of a historic battle strategy game) that discusses the differences between those two, for future reference.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Izeroth on February 04, 2015, 02:10:54 AM
 Spears are an ideal weapon: easy to use, cheap and simple to make, and quite effective when used collectively. It's no wonder that they appear in almost all vermin hordes.

It's not surprising that pikes aren't shown very much in the Redwall universe, as one of the main uses of pikes was defense against mounted troops, and there are no mounted troops ever shown in the books (and only rarely in fanfictions, I might add.)

I would like to see more halberds, as I think they're a very cool weapon. You can stab your enemies with the spear part and then hit them with the axe!
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: The Skarzs on February 04, 2015, 02:25:34 AM
The monitors defended Emperor Ublaz's fortress with pikes, though I think that might be the only use of them mentioned.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: James Gryphon on February 04, 2015, 02:45:31 AM
The first mention of pikes (not the fish) is in Mossflower, by the hares of the Border Patrol. The Redwall wiki (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Pike) claims it was still in use in Martin the Warrior, although it doesn't give any details. I can't think of much besides that; the wiki lists Bluebane from Bellmaker and Cuthbert Blanedane Frunk as having wielded pikes. Cregga also gets a mention there for her 'axepike' (although the description and illustration on her page (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Lady_Cregga_Rose_Eyes) shows that it was pretty clearly a halberd).
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on February 04, 2015, 08:22:45 AM
There were pikes in Mossflower. And I must disagree with you that pikes are good for mounted charges only. If used and protected correctly, even a few pikes could cause mayhem as they are long.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Hickory on February 04, 2015, 12:27:17 PM
In Mossflower, BJ clearly remarked that the hare pikes were much longer then the spears of Tsarmina's horde. Pikes are really, in the sense of things, elongated spear with a wider head.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: LT Sandpaw on February 04, 2015, 02:52:30 PM

Pikes can't really be effectively used in such small scale army's, they are far too unwieldy and incredibly heavy. Massive lines of soldiers were needed to effectively use pikes in general.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on February 10, 2015, 12:16:29 PM
A small army could beat a huge army with pikes by standing in the narrowest area possible and holiding thier pikes down, 'twill cause mayhem.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on February 10, 2015, 11:28:43 PM
...Until they get tired from swing around a long pole with a heavy weight at the end...
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on February 10, 2015, 11:47:54 PM
You stab with a pike. And there are reserves too....
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: LT Sandpaw on February 11, 2015, 01:34:24 AM

Okay just to clarify the battle of the 300 wasn't three hundred Spartans fighting alone! They had ten thousand Greek warriors with them, The Spartans only fought at the end when the army was surrounded. They were forced to fight to the death and that's why they killed so many Persians fighting to the very last man.
As for the pikes in a hole yes, Sun Tzu made that discovery when he forced his army to stand and fight so they couldn't run. Much like the Spartans did. Pikes were very hard to contest. Unless you had a catapult...
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on March 10, 2015, 09:38:31 AM
Quote from: LT Sandpaw on February 11, 2015, 01:34:24 AM

Okay just to clarify the battle of the 300 wasn't three hundred Spartans fighting alone! They had ten thousand Greek warriors with them, The Spartans only fought at the end when the army was surrounded. They were forced to fight to the death and that's why they killed so many Persians fighting to the very last man.

When was Thermopylae mentioned here? ???
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Stonestripe on April 16, 2015, 03:26:40 AM
Another thing to take in to consideration is most of the time both sides usually leave it up to the individual to gain a weapon. Even the long range fighter had a choice between spear, bow, or sling. Even at salamanstron they let the Hares pick their weapon when they join the long patrol. If it was like a paid army that weapons were picked for them then there would be ranks with only one weapon type. So spears may not be everywhere because only a select few chose it as their weapon. Swords arn't even the most popular either. I believe daggers are the most prevalent.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: The Skarzs on April 16, 2015, 02:55:39 PM
. . . Which brings up another point that using daggers as a primary weapon in battle was not only unrealistic, but it was rather stupid. Yes, against an armored opponent they were good for getting between the cracks of the armor, but when you're fighting against someone with a sword you need a sword or something to get your body away from the blade. Someone using only daggers in a battle would die quickly.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Hickory on April 16, 2015, 03:24:03 PM
Unless the wielder was proficient in the throwing of daggers. Like Rasconza.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: LT Sandpaw on April 16, 2015, 05:16:14 PM

Going into battle with only a dagger is a sure way too die.
It would be like going into a firefight using only a pistol while your opposition is using assault rifles.

Throwing your weapon away is even worse, even if one is skilled enough to hit their targets with the knife that's only one enemy, now you have no weapon. Now without a weapon your chances of surviving in battle just dropped like 90%.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: The Skarzs on April 16, 2015, 05:19:46 PM
Keeping a dagger as a secondary weapon is a good idea though, because if you get into a grapple you'll need something like that.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: LT Sandpaw on April 16, 2015, 05:32:57 PM

Dagger aren't heavy enough to sustain a blow from a sword and can do absolutely nothing against a battle axe. If you were fighting against a sword the dagger would be knocked from your hand no matter how tight of a hold you have on it.

Against the spear unless your greased lightning on your feet you'll get stabbed. The dagger just isn't a capable weapon, I can see it being used as a secondary if it ever comes to grappling in battle which is most likely rare.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on April 16, 2015, 05:47:13 PM
Depends, perhaps, on your defenition of dagger. Most people tend to think knife at the word, but a normal dagger had a blade of 12" but could go up to 24", afterwards becoming a short sword. In the Middle Ages a short sword could be a long dagger and vice versa. So if you used two long daggers at, say, 18", I would say that would be pretty proficient weaponry. Also, if you close on an opponent, you have a far better chance with a 18" dagger than a 36" sword.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: The Skarzs on April 16, 2015, 07:42:02 PM
True, but when most people think of a dagger they think of something around 8-12 inches (20-30 cm).
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on April 16, 2015, 08:00:19 PM
Well, if Brian armed beasts with only daggers, they wouldn't have been puny short ones...
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Hickory on April 16, 2015, 08:02:47 PM
And if they did use short blades, he'd've called them Sgian Dhus.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on April 16, 2015, 08:06:39 PM
Not necessarily, those were specific highlander blades.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Stonestripe on April 16, 2015, 09:53:29 PM
Even Rasconsa (spelled horribly wrong) had a short sword I believe
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on April 17, 2015, 01:56:10 PM
Quote from: Wylder Treejumper on April 16, 2015, 05:47:13 PM
Depends, perhaps, on your defenition of dagger. Most people tend to think knife at the word, but a normal dagger had a blade of 12" but could go up to 24", afterwards becoming a short sword. In the Middle Ages a short sword could be a long dagger and vice versa. So if you used two long daggers at, say, 18", I would say that would be pretty proficient weaponry. Also, if you close on an opponent, you have a far better chance with a 18" dagger than a 36" sword.

Half-swording is also always a valid option.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: rrrrr on April 20, 2015, 05:10:59 AM
Or maybe a sword that can turn into a dagger?
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Dannflower Reguba on April 20, 2015, 11:19:07 PM
       The popularity of the spear was also do to the fact that a wall of well placed spear-type weapons was a great counter to mounted units, it's biggest flaw being less mobility combined with the potential threat of ranged assault. The Roman's are still renowned for their "turtle" strategy, now I don't know if they managed to use it in such a way that their "spears" were pointing outside, but that would certainly be a reason for them to keep them close.

       As to the spear being under-rated, I can certainly admit it's not being used to its' full effect. However, I also must point out that a lot of the situations presented by the book would call for weapons such as swords or bows over spears. Often times, the fighting is in a wooded area, or another enclosed space. Lack of mobility in tight spaces is an already mentioned weakness of the spear, whereas a sword, while somewhat sharing this weakness, isn't going to suffer as nearly as much as a spear, especially if it's a short sword. You'll notice that some of the invading armies had what would appear to be a decent amount of this armament, Cluny's horde for example. That was a situation, where the vermin had a good strategic reason to use a spear over other weapons, they would expect to fight on the inside of the Abbey grounds, an open space with plenty of room for movement and organization. They also would've been coming from a pillage and plunder lifestyle, attacking places that didn't necessarily have walls to protect them, also allowing full effective use of the spear.

       And besides, they don't look nearly as awesome as other weapons.  ;)

(Shout out to the Landsknecht, first time I've seen someone mention them before.)
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Faiyloe on April 25, 2015, 03:00:00 PM
For some reason I never looked at this topic till just now and this is perfect. I am actually working on a fan fiction with the Spearlady Gorse in it so this is perfect research for that.   ;D Oh fate is good.  :D :P XD
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on April 25, 2015, 03:06:44 PM
@Dan The romans never used spears, they used the gladius, the spear you must be referring to is the on thrown, called a pilum.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: The Skarzs on April 25, 2015, 03:50:17 PM
Quote from: Faiyloe on April 25, 2015, 03:00:00 PM
For some reason I never looked at this topic till just now and this is perfect. I am actually working on a fan fiction with the Spearlady Gorse in it so this is perfect research for that.   ;D Oh fate is good.  :D :P XD
Heh.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Jetthebinturong on April 25, 2015, 07:55:25 PM
Quote from: Lord_Ashenwyte on April 25, 2015, 03:06:44 PM
@Dan The romans never used spears, they used the gladius, the spear you must be referring to is the on thrown, called a pilum.

Except thrown spears are still spears and pila were often used in melee combat
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Dannflower Reguba on April 25, 2015, 08:49:47 PM
       Spear, Javelin, Lance, Whatever you want to call it. I'm using the more general term spear to make things easy. I don't care what fancy name an ancient civilization gave to their spear, it's still a spear.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on April 26, 2015, 03:31:02 AM
Quote from: Jetthebinturong on April 25, 2015, 07:55:25 PM
Quote from: Lord_Ashenwyte on April 25, 2015, 03:06:44 PM
@Dan The romans never used spears, they used the gladius, the spear you must be referring to is the on thrown, called a pilum.

Except thrown spears are still spears and pila were often used in melee combat


@But they were unreliable in melee combat, as they were made to bend upon impact with an enemy's shield. The preferred cc weapon of the legionary was their gladius.

Quote from: danflorreguba on April 25, 2015, 08:49:47 PM
       Spear, Javelin, Lance, Whatever you want to call it. I'm using the more general term spear to make things easy. I don't care what fancy name an ancient civilization gave to their spear, it's still a spear.

I don't think it's fair to group a pilum with a spear used by the Normans, they're different.
Title: Re: Spears
Post by: Skyblade on May 04, 2015, 12:34:52 PM
Quote from: The Skarzs on February 03, 2015, 04:24:23 AM
There are plenty of topics on weapons on here, but I want this topic to be solely focused on the highly underrated weapon: the spear. (This includes javelins, pikes, and the like.)
I feel that this should be read and considered by those who enjoy writing fan fictions, for their battles, and also for those who participate in the roleplaying games.


Spears are extremely underrated, being portrayed as specifically throwing weapons that are clumsy because of their length or are useless against a sword; it often is unappealing because of its rather dull appearance. The fact of the matter is that spears have been the most widely-used weapon in history. Yes, swords were used everywhere, but they did not take the same basic shape that spears did: a bit of pointed metal on the end of a stick. That simple. That was why they were so widely used: they were extremely effective, and they were simple to make.

Now, spears can be used in more than a few ways: making quick little jabs, pushing enemies back at a safe distance, and throwing them, all the while able to be protected by a shield.
Spears are effective for jabbing because the leverage one has far back on the shaft with the other hand further up allows for great control and swift movement by the user. In this way one can get through gaps in armor, hit a body twice a second with great damage, and parry other weapons out of the way.
Another reason they are so effective is because they can keep enemies far away from the user and still be able to fight. As long as the user is relatively practiced in the use of the spear, he would be able to stop people from getting close in where he is vulnerable. Another small weapon might also be held for such cases.
Another advantage that a spear has is being able to be held overhand or underhand. This way one can get under or over defenses when necessary. When held underhand the spear is good for pushing and making hard thrusts. Overhand they can be used over the top of a shield, or be thrown if need be.

Spears are not flimsy. A properly made spear's haft is hefty and robust, and it would take quite the blow of a sword to cut it in half, especially if it is made of a dense wood like ash. The same is with axes: the wooden haft is hardly going to be sliced through when both opponents' weapons are moving around. Just because it gets hit does not mean it is going to break. (This is relevant for both opponents; one cannot hack the weapon in half, and the other shouldn't have to worry too much about his weapon being rendered useless.)

There are many adaptations of the spear: the javelin, mostly meant for throwing, the pike, meant for thrusting at a distance, the pole arm, meant for long hits, the "boar" spear with the flutes on the sides to prevent the point being driven further than the user wants, etc. Each are utilized for fighting, and each are extremely effective. One can easily hold off two opponents when wielding a spear, as demonstrated here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LUJ-IMknsN0 .

The spear should not be underestimated.

Hopefully I have offered some help to those who read this, as I want to put a little more realism into people's works, be it in writing or in playing.
Feel free to share your thoughts.

Very interesting! I will be considering this for my writings. Also, thanks for introducing us to Skallagrim. He seems to have some nice stuff posted.