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What made vermin go bad?

Started by Izeroth, September 26, 2014, 12:21:26 PM

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Wylder Treejumper

Hey Sandpaw! Why dontcha introduce yourself in the front lawns, in the Introduction Topic?

As for calling someone vermin, I believe that would be an insult.
"'Tis the business of small minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death."
-Thomas Paine

"Integrity and firmness is all I can promise; these, be the voyage long or short, shall never forsake me although I may be deserted by all men."
-George Washington

Courage: Not only the willingness to die manfully, but also the determination to live decently.

Hickory

Interesting topic. I've recently finished a series of books involving squirrels, mice and hedgehogs, where there is no Redwall type foe beasts, and it's just the three above species.

Has anybody read this series? That main character is a squirrel named Urchin.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Izeroth

 It may be insulting to call someone vermin, but it's a universal term used by pretty much all Goodbeasts.

Romsca

Quote from: Sagetip, the hare on December 14, 2014, 08:11:51 PM
Interesting topic. I've recently finished a series of books involving squirrels, mice and hedgehogs, where there is no Redwall type foe beasts, and it's just the three above species.

Has anybody read this series? That main character is a squirrel named Urchin.

I have! The Mistmantle Chronicles? I didn't like them as much, though

Maudie

Ok, I need to gather my thoughts on the subject.

I think...that with the way the vermin were raised, they paid more attention to the wild side of their instincts. You can see that even in our world. Animals that BJ made "bad" are all more of a wild, competitive animals in our world. Whereas the creatures that he made "good" are usually viewed as more "timid" and "tame."
But there is fault in my logic, I realize. Badgers are generally viewed as vicious creatures. I think BJ took the more warlike, fighting species and put most of them in the bad category, but decided that it wasn't really logical for all the bad guys to be fighters and the good guys to be peacemakers.
Sorry, just rambling thoughts. :P
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3


Hickory

well, hares don't necesaryily fight in the real world, and many ferrets, stoats and weasels are bred for pets and coats, so it's not that they are consciously bad in the real world, they just have a "self-defense" instinct. Bzut in redwall, they obviously want to be bad, and enjoy it. If you look at good creatures, they can actually tend to be pompous and overrulling (voles. Voles. VOLES!  I'll let you find other pompous, overruling creatures). So you could say that these animals persecuted the "bad" ones (notice how almost every single "good" creature has a name like"vermin" for the "bad" creatures? Noticably Skippers) and the "bad" creatures said "Well shut up" and left, or killed, the "good" creatures and their domain. This may not go for certain species (like hares, who seem to constantly be cooped up in their mountain and rarely encounter "bad" creatures in scenes that don't include fighting.) Now badgers and hares mayy only give hard feelings to "bad" creatures since they (badgers and hares) feel a sense of protection to other "Good" creatures and wish to... prosecute attackers. Some species, like squirrels, mice and otters were more warlike (squirrels and mice scrrabble over food, and otters may actually fight) so they choose to stand up to the "bad" creatures, thus reversing the fight. This may also be a reson for the appearence of Kotir. The "good" animals built it for a fortress againstt bad animals (support: "bad" animals are always bad structure builder, annd when they build houses and forts it is usually slave labor).
Just a thought

THE MATRIX!!!!!
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

LT Sandpaw


If this was anything like the real world Badgers would be rampaging monsters eating everything.


"Sometimes its not about winning, but how you lose." - John Gwynne

"Facts don't care about your feelings." -Ben Shapiro

Eulaliaaa!

I think vermin in the Redwall world are a lot like orcs in The Lord of the Rings. They're pure evil, and they don't know how to be good. I'm not saying that all vermin are always bad no matter what, because throughout the series are several vermin who aren't so bad in the end (Blaggut, Romsca, Veil). Maybe they're the same, even though I don't think there were ever good orcs.
Just pretend there is something interesting and unique written here... I have nothing to say.

Stonestripe

There are some good vermin in the books. I think 2 examples actually stayed in redwall. One went good cause he was hiding cause he stole the peals of lutra another (I can't remember which book) was with his shipmate and wanted to stay cause he loved taking care of the dibbins. I believe he gets killed when they leave though.
"Defend the weak, protect both young and old, never desert your friends. Give justice to all, be fearless in battle and always ready to defend the right."

—The law of Badger Lords"

The Skarzs

That would be Graylunk, whose skeleton Tansy and Arven found, and Blaggut.
Welcome to the forum, Stonestripe! If you make a post in the Introduction Topic in the Front Lawns you can be more properly greeted.
Cave of Skarzs

Cave potato.

Lady Ashenwyte

Quote from: Eulaliaaa! on January 25, 2015, 09:33:42 PM
I think vermin in the Redwall world are a lot like orcs in The Lord of the Rings. They're pure evil, and they don't know how to be good. I'm not saying that all vermin are always bad no matter what, because throughout the series are several vermin who aren't so bad in the end (Blaggut, Romsca, Veil). Maybe they're the same, even though I don't think there were ever good orcs.

The difference between orcs and vermin is this. Orcs were bred by Morgoth/Melkor to become evil. Vermin have no such restraints.
The fastest way to a man's heart- Or anyone's, in fact- Is to tear a hole through their chest.

Indeed. You are as ancient as the soot that choked Pompeii into oblivion, though not quite as uncaring. - Rusvul

Just a butterfly struggling through my chrysalis.

Machiavellian

I believe that, if you look at the Redwall Books from a lore point of view, that because they're all written or chronicled by the Redwall Abbey Recorders, that that is why vermin are depicted as such villainous, despicable creatures so often while most goodbeasts are depicted as kind, stalwart, loyal chums through and through.

If a faction chronicling the events of their past had the mind to, they could very, very easily put their foes or those they dislike in an unfair light.

I'm not saying that this means that all vermin were simply depicted unfairly and never were actually evil, but there are certainly many points that could have been edited by Redwall Abbey Recorders to make them seem far worse, while those favored by Redwall Abbey residents could end up looking far more heroic, trustworthy and skilled.
It's pronounced "Matchavalleeyun".
Nah, just kiddin'.
It's "Macki-velian".

rrrrr

But Deyna was good after he was raised by vermin. :o

::)
rrrrr.....

Ho arr, mateys, swimming is fun!

I had shrimp 'n' hotroot soup today.


Jetthebinturong

Which doesn't make sense. Taggerung and Outcast go against all logic. Nature does not trump nurture when it comes to personality
"In the meantime, no one should roam the camp alone. Use the buddy system."
"Understood." Will looked at Nico. "Will you be my buddy?"
"You're a dork," Nico announced.
~ The Hidden Oracle, Rick Riordan

The Skarzs

Agreed. The way one speaks and acts is affected by that which the young one is surrounded by. For example, the children of immigrants to the United States usually learned to speak English, and despite their nationality they became "normal" to the area.
Of course, each and every person (creature, whatever) has their own personality that either hinders or helps said influences, but usually one brought up in an environment where everyone is caring will also care for those who care for him, just as a dog-eat-dog world would spawn its own dogs for the vicious circle.
Cave of Skarzs

Cave potato.