Redwall Abbey

Brian Jacques' Works (Spoilers) => History, Legends and Myths => Topic started by: The Mask on May 05, 2014, 07:53:46 AM

Title: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: The Mask on May 05, 2014, 07:53:46 AM
Vulpuz was mentioned in the Taggerung as the Lord of Hellgates. It was also mentioned that foxes were the only vermin who were related with him. It got me wondering, Who is he? Is he a fox or a wolf? Is he alive or is he dead? Looking forward to your discussion sahs!
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Jetthebinturong on May 05, 2014, 10:52:05 AM
It is a play on the Latin word Vulpes which means fox so yes, he is a fox. Also he is not necessarily real as there is no confirmed afterlife in Redwall other than the Dark Forest
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: The Mask on May 07, 2014, 03:18:32 AM
True, but It's quite possible that Hell Gates and The Dark Forest are the same. A badger Lord, Sunflash I believe, went to Hellgates but was stopped by Lord Brocktree and some other famous Badgers.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Gonff the Mousethief on May 07, 2014, 04:45:34 AM
I'm pretty sure that he went to the dark forest . I think that hell gates is where vermin go, and the dark forest is where goodies go.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on May 12, 2014, 09:06:07 PM
Dark Forest Gates...
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Shadowed One on June 04, 2014, 12:59:43 PM
Yeah, I think it said that Vulpuz was a fox in the book.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Russa Nodrey on June 04, 2014, 02:31:13 PM
I don't actually remember him, which book(s) was he mentioned in?
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Gonff the Mousethief on June 04, 2014, 08:02:03 PM
Taggerung I think
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Albrithr on June 08, 2014, 02:07:28 AM
This is the closest anybody gets to referencing religion in Redwall- I find this concept fascinating.  From the line, it appears that Vulpuz is the "Satan" of the Redwall world (and was perhaps whom Cluny was referring to whenever he invoked the devil- he would be the first to not admit that this devil was a fox).  It is also in fitting with the character of the foxes.  As for the Dark Forest, that seems to be most like Purgatory.  Which would imply that the sunny meadows mentioned in other passages would be Heaven, and would itself have a Lord...
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: The Mask on June 13, 2014, 07:57:04 AM
@Russa,  Yes, it was Taggerung.

@Albrithir, There also has been said there is a 'spirit of the forest'
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: FlinkyTheStoat on September 24, 2014, 12:14:41 AM
I'd just like to point out that the only character who mentions Vulpuz, Ermath, is a fox seer - and while there are certainly legitimate seers in the Redwall universe, that doesn't mean she wouldn't want to talk up her own species (and that of her boss Ruggan Bor). Therefore I never really took the "Vulpuz" myth all that seriously, especially considering it's never mentioned otherwise.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Tam and Martin on September 30, 2014, 02:50:27 AM
Very interesting topic for sure.

I think he is one of Brian's one time character's. Martin the Warrior is mentioned throughout the series, Sunflash is mentioned throughout the series, Boar the fighter is mentioned etc.

Vulpuz though was a one time only thing. He is never mentioned ever again. I am thinking that He is something that Brian thought of specifically for that book and not used in any others.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: The Mask on September 30, 2014, 11:45:10 PM
 That's true, but the main reason I find him so interesting is because it's basically the only direct reference to some sort of afterlife.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Tam and Martin on October 07, 2014, 11:11:23 AM
I agree with you.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: LT Sandpaw on November 16, 2014, 09:15:23 PM
In the first book it seems to be very religious, then after that it dwindles, its been awhile since I read the book who said something about Vulpuz?
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Jetthebinturong on November 16, 2014, 09:17:34 PM
Taggerung, Ermath talks about him
Title: Vulpuz
Post by: Hickory on March 14, 2015, 07:30:15 PM
This topic has probably been made already, but this might get attention..

"Ermath's toothless grin looked ghastly in the firelight. 'Is the fox not related to the wolf, lord? There is none among vermin who can equal the fox for strength, guile and ferocity. He alone carries the blood of the Great Vulpuz, ruler of Hellgates!'"

- Ermath, Vixen Seer of Ruggan Bor, on the legacy of the fox.

So, wolves must be a thing in Redwall. That can be easily confirmed with a quick glance through the beginning of The Bellmaker. However, who might Vulpuz be? The equivalent of the devil? An actual wolf, long dead, that lives on in legend?

Now, I don't want to solve everything Redwall related, but this really sparked my curiousity.
Title: Re: Wolves
Post by: Izeroth on March 14, 2015, 08:12:12 PM
 Why didn't you name this thread "Vulpez"? That would make more sense.
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: Hickory on March 14, 2015, 09:15:29 PM
Done.
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: The Mask on March 15, 2015, 04:51:40 AM
 :D
My first thread on the forum was this exact topic.

http://redwallabbey.com/forum/index.php?topic=6146.0
Title: Re: Wolves
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on March 15, 2015, 06:20:47 AM
Quote from: Izeroth on March 14, 2015, 08:12:12 PM
Why didn't you name this thread "Vulpez"? That would make more sense.

Vulpez?
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: Izeroth on March 15, 2015, 06:07:35 PM
 Nevermind. I just realized that I misspelled it.
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: Kitsune on April 13, 2015, 04:06:34 AM
Hmm, this is an interesting topic. We already know that there is a "Dark Forrest", and I think this is supposed to be their version of Heaven (please do not let this start any sort of debate), and there also is an obvious version of Hell for them, as "Hellgates" is mentioned several times. Despite there being one mention of a devil figure, Vulpuz, there is no mention of a God figure. I think that Mr. Jaques may have done this so that people of many religions could enjoy his books. Many religions share the idea of two eternal places, one of paradise and one of damnation, but who created these is a point of disagreement.
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: Albrithr on April 13, 2015, 06:11:45 AM
Also, Vulpuz appears to be a fox, as "Vulpes" means fox. This would fit with Jacques' other naming conventions, such as Gulo the Savage, who belongs to the species Gulo Gulo. So this could possibly be a reference to a mythical progenitor of the fox race and/or a reference to a devil/god of the underwold.
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: Stonestripe on April 16, 2015, 03:19:15 AM
Makes sense cause there is a badger gate keeper.
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: rrrrr on April 20, 2015, 02:06:44 AM
Although I think Ermath was just saying that to regain favor of Ruggan Bor.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Belffelyne Hare on June 09, 2015, 09:16:08 PM
He's quite clearly a tribal "god" of sorts for the Juska only. The Devil is mentioned (with name capitalized) in other books, and most vermin apparently believe in him. That doesn't imply that they believe in Vulpuz; only the Juska believe in Vulpuz, as far as we know. The Devil and Vulpuz aren't necessarily the same creature.

Vulpuz could very well exist in the same way that Martin exists and contacts creatures through a spiritual medium. This is further evidenced by the fact that in The Taggerung, the seers employed by the Juska were the real McCoy; that is, they weren't depicted as charlatans. Quite to the adverse, in fact, they were depicted as worth their salt as evidenced by all the true prophecies they told. They could have fabricated Vulpuz, but the book doesn't make the reader feel that way.
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: Belffelyne Hare on June 09, 2015, 09:23:20 PM
As I mentioned on th' other bally thread, the seers in The Taggerung aren't made out as charlatans and their prophecies ring true throughout the book. Since they've got to get this impossible-to-know beforehand knowledge from somewhere, it could very well be this Vulpuz individual they mention. Since clearly they are real seers and not fakes, what reason would they have to lie about who gave them these prophetic visions? If they speak the truth in their prophecies, it makes no sense for them to lie afterward. However, there is not necessarily any connection made between The Devil (who is mentioned multiple times in other books) and Vulpuz, who sounds more like a tribal "god" of the Juska, who are predominantly controlled by foxes.
The Devil sounds more like the all-around go-to satan myth for your average vermin, while Vulpuz is a mysterious (and potentially very real) god/devil figure of the Juska.

On a somewhat less-related note, for some reason, vermin don't seem to connect the word "Hellgates" with suffering or discomfort, and behave as though it is a perfectly normal place to go for one's afterlife. By extension the Lord of Hellgates, this Vulpuz figure, is made out as powerful, mighty, and everything a fox would want to be. He's not made out as a "devil", he's made out as a "god". Someone they would look up to.
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: The Skarzs on June 09, 2015, 10:17:03 PM
Mm, well, there was never any real mention of any deity in the series, something I believe Brian had intended to keep out, so while it is possible that it could have some backstory (and be some fodder for a fan fiction), it is probably just something from, as you said, tribal lore and whatnot.
  As for what you said on the vermin looking up to this devil-like figure with respect rather than fear, it seems like that would be rather pagan-like, worshiping a devil, that, while not entirely unthinkable with vermin's reputation, is hardly something one would expect from a book by Mr. Jacques.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: The Skarzs on June 09, 2015, 10:21:47 PM
Perhaps they did use this Vulpuz for their prophesies, but it may only be the hinted and vague bit of magic present in the books rather than interaction with the supernatural.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Faiyloe on June 10, 2015, 03:34:39 AM
Martin comes to creatures in dream/visions so why shouldn't this Vulpuz guy do the same?  It makes perfect sense. Most of the time marten chooses one beast and they receive his message but no one else does, the only reason that it gets around is that they tell people about there dream/visions. No if you where a vermin and you had one of these visions would you go around telling people about them for nothing or would you take the credit?
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: Faiyloe on June 10, 2015, 03:47:38 AM
What makes the most sense to me is that Vulpuz was once a living breathing being and like Martin he was a great Warrior in the vermin sense. He died and then like marten he would visit select people in visions or dreams hence the sears. 
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: The Skarzs on June 10, 2015, 03:51:08 AM
Like some sort of creature always helping the bad side. . . Now THAT would be interesting.
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: Faiyloe on June 10, 2015, 04:06:24 AM
Right, but you have to remember Vulpuz is still a vermin so his motives will not exactly be good ones and who he helps will be select. While Martin give the impression that he will always be there in time of need, Vulpuz seems to do things on a whim deserting creatures when things don't pan out or not even helping them in the first place. 
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: MatthiasMan on June 11, 2015, 04:25:12 AM
While Vulpuz is a more less informed character, I like to picture him something similar to a basilisk. I think it was likely that he was killed in his old age, but in his prime, he was basically the ruler.  Maybe he lived for thousands of years and just one day, in his old age, he was slain.

Who knows for sure.  At least, that's what I like to think about him.
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: Izeroth on June 11, 2015, 04:59:49 AM
 I imagine him as a mythical fox figure, spoken of around vermin campfires, but probably nothing more than an old tale.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Izeroth on June 11, 2015, 05:00:38 AM
 Shouldn't this topic be merged with "Vulpuz"?
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: Jetthebinturong on June 11, 2015, 09:06:50 AM
Quote from: The Skarzs on June 09, 2015, 10:17:03 PM
As for what you said on the vermin looking up to this devil-like figure with respect rather than fear, it seems like that would be rather pagan-like, worshiping a devil, that, while not entirely unthinkable with vermin's reputation, is hardly something one would expect from a book by Mr. Jacques.

I have a friend who is a Pagan witch. He does not worship the Devil. Pagans don't worship the Devil, Luciferians and Satanists do. Early Christians simply appropriated Pagan gods and turned them into demons to drive people away from Paganism.
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: The Skarzs on June 11, 2015, 02:15:26 PM
Key phrase being "Pagan-like".
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: Jukka the Sling on July 02, 2015, 04:02:47 PM
Quote from: Faiyloe on June 10, 2015, 03:47:38 AM
What makes the most sense to me is that Vulpuz was once a living breathing being and like Martin he was a great Warrior in the vermin sense. He died and then like marten he would visit select people in visions or dreams hence the sears. 
Now that's a fascinating idea.  I never thought of it that way.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: James Gryphon on July 02, 2015, 10:05:21 PM
Quote from: Izeroth on June 11, 2015, 05:00:38 AM
Shouldn't this topic be merged with "Vulpuz"?
The other way around, since this is the older topic.
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on July 24, 2015, 03:28:09 AM
Quote from: The Skarzs on June 11, 2015, 02:15:26 PM
Key phrase being "Pagan-like".

I still don't think worshipping a devil is pagan-like, but whatever, let's drop this.

I would think Vulpuz is the Martin of the vermin. He is a role model, and spirit who helps vermin. There is also a possibility that Vulpuz is a god, rather than a legendary hero.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Hickory on July 24, 2015, 04:24:23 AM
Like Hades?
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on July 24, 2015, 04:26:12 AM
Quote from: Sagetip, the hare on July 24, 2015, 04:24:23 AM
Like Hades?

Yeah.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Belffelyne Hare on July 25, 2015, 08:50:36 PM
Precisely, Lord Ashenwyte! They're not worshipping a devil, they're treating him like a role model. They speak of him with respect, not fear.
Pagan-like to worship a devil, perhaps, The Skarsz, but Vulpuz isn't a devil, is he? At least, he's not made out to be a devil. Being worshipped or held in high regard by vermin doesn't make him a "Satan" figure. They certainly don't seem to think of him that way.
Ermath speaks o' th' bally ol' slyboots with incredible respect and reverence, and suggests that foxes might be descended from him. "This Vulpuz guy is really cool- I bet you're just like him, O Great Master Ruggan."

Hmm, now, does him being Lord of Hellgates make him into the Devil?
Maybe. I can't rightly say. The line between Dark Forest and Hellgates is bloomin' thin (or even nonexistent!).
Title: Re: Vulpuz
Post by: Jetthebinturong on July 25, 2015, 09:00:23 PM
Quote from: The Skarzs on June 11, 2015, 02:15:26 PM
Key phrase being "Pagan-like".

Worshiping a Devil is not Pagan-like. Perhaps you mean they perform Pagan-like rituals in their worship? Granted I don't know whether such rituals exist or what they might be, but it makes more sense than how I'm interpreting what you say.

I rather think Vulpuz is more like an ancestral spirit from some kind of tribal religion.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Belffelyne Hare on July 25, 2015, 09:02:34 PM
Exactly. Hence him only being mentioned once in the series.

All other vermin refer to a "Devil", but never to Vulpuz.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: The Skarzs on July 25, 2015, 09:09:04 PM
 Okay, paganism is the worship of any thing other than God. Worshiping a devil is pretty much the real-world example of paganism.

And by the way, I said "Pagan-LIKE". Similar. Relatable. I didn't say they worship Vulpuz, which is why I didn't say a definitive "pagan". Savvy? He may not be a devil, but he's the closest thing to one the series has.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Jetthebinturong on July 25, 2015, 10:38:21 PM
Quote from: The Skarzs on July 25, 2015, 09:09:04 PM
 Okay, paganism is the worship of any thing other than God. Worshiping a devil is pretty much the real-world example of paganism.
No, that's the definition if you want to be disparaging or offensive.

A Pagan is a member of a religious, spiritual, or cultural community based on the worship of nature or the earth; a neopagan.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Belffelyne Hare on July 25, 2015, 11:01:54 PM
*sigh*
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Hickory on July 27, 2015, 03:31:03 PM
Same thoughts here. I saw your other thread, sah, quite a theory. The problem with Vulpuz being the Devil is that the Devil (satan), is opposite of God, but woodlanders don't have a God. That increases the chances of Vulpuz having once been "mortal".
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Belffelyne Hare on July 27, 2015, 08:08:47 PM
Aye.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Grond on July 09, 2017, 02:06:38 AM
The Dark Forest and Hellgates had been referenced by many different characters in many different books.Both of these were places were talked about by vermin and good beasts of various affiliations and living in very different temporal frames. Earlier on in the series the only mention of any afterlife was the Dark Forest, and it seems both vermin and good beasts went there upon death.  This indicates some widespread and prolonged belief in these 2 afterlifes in the Redwall series. Later on, I think in Mariel of Redwall, the sea rats talk about Hellgates and it is referenced in later books. Neither of these places feature as heavily in later books.

Vulpuz however is mentioned only by one seer in one book. Which indicates that he is more so some kind of deity or mythical figure for the Juskabor than for all vermin. As he is not even mentioned by the Juskarath- meaning he is probably not even worshipped by all the Juska tries even...
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Jukka the Sling on November 22, 2017, 11:35:51 PM
I'm rereading Mariel of Redwall, and something jumped out at me.  On page 101 (American softcover), Gabool says, "Graypatch.  There's a name for the Dark One's book."  Obviously this a reference to some sort of demonic figure, which could be either a generic devil guy or maybe Vulpuz, assuming belief in Vulpuz is not just a Juska thing.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Ashleg on November 22, 2017, 11:36:45 PM
That may be Vulpuz!
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Jukka the Sling on November 24, 2017, 08:12:52 PM
:D  I'm really fascinated by any references to religious belief throughout the series.  Gabool repeatedly says 'hell' in his swearing, more so than I remember anyone else doing (unless I've just forgotten a lot).  I'm wondering now if most vermin share the same religious beliefs, and if they're just superstition or actually based on evidence.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Grond on November 25, 2017, 02:34:37 AM
Quote from: Jukka the Sling on November 24, 2017, 08:12:52 PM
:D  I'm really fascinated by any references to religious belief throughout the series.  Gabool repeatedly says 'hell' in his swearing, more so than I remember anyone else doing (unless I've just forgotten a lot).  I'm wondering now if most vermin share the same religious beliefs, and if they're just superstition or actually based on evidence.

There is a belief in the Dark Forest shared by everyone (especially in the earliest books). Hellgates is described as a place by different vermin factions in different time periods. But Vulpuz seems to be a Juska or more specifically Juskabor belief even since nobody else references him.

As for an afterlife the fact that the spirit of Martin the Warrior, most prominently, but of others as well is able to give accurate advice consistently to beasts living at times well after the character's death (and previously unaware of Martin's existence for example) would attest to it existing. 
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: LordTBT on November 26, 2017, 12:58:35 AM
This is our article on the afterlife.

http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Forest
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Cornflower MM on November 27, 2017, 04:02:41 PM
I do seem to recall several instances of Vulpuz in the series, not just from the Juska. Perhaps I'm wrong, having not gotten past the first five chapters of a Redwall book in years, but I swear there's been other books than just Taggerung.

And yes, Hellgates has been described in several of the books, by several vermin and a few goodbeasts if (again) I'm recalling correctly.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: a crumb on November 27, 2017, 04:38:54 PM
Hellgates is held to be believed by both vermin and goodbeasts, and gets mentioned a lot. But Vulpuz was definitely only used by Ermath, Ruggan Bor's seer.


I find it very doubtful that Vulpuz is widespread. It's very believable it's a Juskabor-specific* thing, not even Juska as a whole. Jacques liked to use Latin names for things quite a few times, and usually as the very thing it is (Lutra, Korvusa, Reguba ect.). Vulpuz being as close to the Latin word for fox as it is is hardly a coincidence, especially in conjunction with Ermath implying Ruggan Bor is spiritually more powerful since his fox blood is related to the fox blood of some sort of powerful spiritual being. For propaganda purposes, it would obviously be very useful for Ruggan Bor to have his followers think he's spiritually endowed. Of course if you're a fox warlord you'd want the "god" to be a fox. And it's useful for Ermath, so she has another avenue to flatter her ruler.

Of course, we only see two Juska seers: Grissoul and Ermath, and both are foxes. Maybe it is Juska-wide thing, and all the seers of the tribes have to be foxes?
I don't see all vermin randomly believing it's a fox that runs the afterlife, though. Why? Slagar might love that, sure, but why would all the rats and stoats and such?

In any case, I also don't think it'd surprising if it's just a Juska tribe with the only reference to such a spiritual concept. Of every group we ever see in Redwall canon, they're the most spiritual group there is. Which is ironic, given there's a literal Abbey not too far away.



*(I would like to note that Firefox wanted to spellcheck correct this to "Khabarovsk-specific")
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Ashleg on November 27, 2017, 05:07:56 PM
Foxes do seem to always be the seers, with one or two exceptions, Juska or not. Right from the get-go we were greeted with Sella.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: The Skarzs on November 27, 2017, 05:51:14 PM
In my imagination, vermin may have a culture that is polytheistic. Foxes (and seers in particular) may homage this Vulpuz, though it could also be specific to the Juskabor, like Crumb said. Different factions may "worship" different deities that apply to them, much like Roman and Greek cultures, though East India may be a more accurate representation.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Jukka the Sling on November 27, 2017, 05:56:54 PM
Kind of thinking/summarizing out loud here.  So what we know for almost certain is that there's some kind of generic figure, ruler of the negative afterlife.  Gabool called him the Dark One.  The Juska-bor's idea of Vulpuz seems to be somewhat different, since, as someone pointed out on this thread ages ago, Vulpuz seems to be respected by them, not feared.  Hmm.

@Skarzs:  Ooh, that's a cool way of looking at it!
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: The Skarzs on November 27, 2017, 08:01:42 PM
Hades, Mercury, Yama, Osiris, all from different polytheistic religions depicting similar things. Osiris is probably the least, but he was respected rather than feared. Hades and Mercury may be the most applicable since they are nearly identical, (I think), from two different peoples.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: a crumb on November 27, 2017, 08:25:07 PM
wait...

a creature, formerly mortal, now hidden in darkness, power-hungry enough to take control of the afterlife, and the only species he is ever directly associated with is a fox, on top of being known by many different names?

there's only one explanation...

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/IsNK1Zp.jpg)
[close]
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Jetthebinturong on November 27, 2017, 08:27:16 PM
Quote from: The Skarzs on November 27, 2017, 08:01:42 PM
Hades, Mercury, Yama, Osiris, all from different polytheistic religions depicting similar things. Osiris is probably the least, but he was respected rather than feared. Hades and Mercury may be the most applicable since they are nearly identical, (I think), from two different peoples.
Hades and Mercury are very different, and both come from the same general mythology. Mercury is the Roman version of Hermes. Maybe you meant Pluto?
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: The Skarzs on November 27, 2017, 08:30:24 PM
Yes, thanks, Jet.

Quote from: a crumb on November 27, 2017, 08:25:07 PM
wait...

a creature, formerly mortal, now hidden in darkness, power-hungry enough to take control of the afterlife, and the only species he is ever directly associated with is a fox, on top of being known by many different names?

there's only one explanation...

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/IsNK1Zp.jpg)
[close]
Le gasp.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: a crumb on November 27, 2017, 08:32:30 PM
Quote from: Ashleg on November 27, 2017, 05:07:56 PM
Foxes do seem to always be the seers, with one or two exceptions, Juska or not. Right from the get-go we were greeted with Sella.

True, I hadn't thought of that. And it would make sense, given foxes are associated in folklore with trickery and magic.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Grond on December 20, 2017, 03:50:45 AM
Quote from: LordTBT on November 26, 2017, 12:58:35 AM
This is our article on the afterlife.

http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Forest

One other difference between the Dark Forest and Hellgates is that there is direct evidence in the series about the existence of the Dark Forest. First there are the examples provided, in the article, with Martin and Sunflash conversing with beasts who were already there during their respective near death experiences. Secondly, I would add that it is also safe to assume that Martin the Warrior's spirit comes from the Dark Forest. Its existence is essentially confirmed as his spirit has contacted characters throughout the entire series who lived in very different temporal periods and geographic areas. Those contacted were also for the most part sane so these visions of MTW's spirit were not hallucinations. Whereas for Vulpuz we only have a fox seer telling a fox chieftain that the ruler in the afterlife is a fox. This could certainly just be an example of a fox praising foxes-their species. 
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Ashleg on December 20, 2017, 01:14:16 PM
Or...fox religion? XD
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: The Skarzs on December 20, 2017, 11:16:04 PM
Quote from: The Skarzs on November 27, 2017, 05:51:14 PM
In my imagination, vermin may have a culture that is polytheistic. Foxes (and seers in particular) may homage this Vulpuz, though it could also be specific to the Juskabor, like Crumb said. Different factions may "worship" different deities that apply to them, much like Roman and Greek cultures, though East India may be a more accurate representation.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Redwallforever29 on January 13, 2018, 02:11:16 AM
Of the two cultures we see in redwall I would say vermin represent more of the pagan themes such as belief in the occult (with particular tribes believing more strongly in superstition) and Redwall itself being similar to Christianity. It is interesting though that the predictions about Tag were right, so that must mean in some way or form there is a devil in the universe. Martin pretty much represents Christ (and is pretty much worshiped by the Abbey) he even exhibits supernatural power while alive (like a visit from Boar in the dark forest) so it could be the vermin had something similar. Maybe Vulpuz was one of the first vermin to gather others to his cause. Or maybe he was especially vicious?

It's kind of hard to say considering that the vermin seem to value things like trickery, deceit, lying and etc so maybe Hellsgates would he like a paradise for them??
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Jetthebinturong on January 13, 2018, 04:43:12 AM
I wouldn't actually say that woodlander religion is directly analagous to Christianity. In fact they seem either pagan or pantheistic, worshipping mother nature itself and making vague reference to a deity known as "the spirit of the seasons." It's worth noting that badgers seem to have their own religion which is quite apart from that of any other woodlander species.

Vermin seem not to be pagan, but just superstitious in general. The few of them that do follow a religion seem to believe in some sort of mysticism similar to that of many cultures, but that seems to be some blend of Celtic druidic tradition and Native American spirituality.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: The Skarzs on January 13, 2018, 06:58:12 AM
None of it is really set in stone. It's all pretty vague, and we can make correlations between religions and practices, but I don't think Brian intended them to be as drawn to belief systems in the same way humans are.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Krantor the Brutal on January 19, 2018, 09:58:18 PM
I think Brian meant vermin to be kind representation of different cultures and religions which were pagan in theory. Whereas Redwallers were of a kind of proper religion whatever it is in that world.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Grond on January 25, 2018, 06:59:47 AM

You could divide the various vermin hordes into several groups based on their superstition or religious belief.

1. Highly fanatical and viewing their leader as a living god. The rats of Malkariss come to mind. They essentially viewed Malkariss as a living deity and were fanatically devoted to him. An example of a cult of personality. Kharanjul's horde may have also shown signs of this- although this might have been motivated by a very real fear of him, who unlike Malkariss could easily kill any of his subordinates, rather than being viewed as a living god. The example that comes to mind is how 2 of his sentries jumped into the gorge and thus committed suicide for falling asleep while guarding the passage across the gorge and letting the band of Redwallers cross it. 

2. Highly religious and superstitious- such as the Juskabor and probably other Juska clans to- they are the only ones to believe in a single deity- Vulpuz and are highly superstitious with seers having a high place in society.

3.Superstitious and having a belief in some kind of afterlife but lacking any kind of real "religion". An example would be Gabool's sea rats with the continued and prolific references they make to Hellsgate. They appear to genuinely believe that is where they go after dying.

4. Superstitious and hence believing in some form of the supernatural but not having any real organized religion or belief in an afterlife, an example would be Swartt, Trunn, Korva etc...

5. Not exactly superstitious or religious but placing an inordinate amount of worth and giving near supernatural qualities to a certain object(s) or animal(s). An example would be the Pure Ferrets in Triss and their quest to get the golden paw ring and crown of King Sarengo. Kurda chased after the 3 adders and sailed across the ocean to go after these objects. She believed they were essential for her to be the ruler of Riftgaard. Also Gulo and his horde and the walking stone or the turtle- Gulo chased his brother Askor across the sea to get it. It seems in their culture you could not be the true ruler without having this turtle as the symbol of power.

6. Not superstitious or religious and not believing in anything supernatural. An example would be Badrang or Vizka- they did not reference any afterlife, were not superstitious, and did not attribute magical or supernatural abilities to anything.

Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: Ashleg on January 25, 2018, 01:14:14 PM
True there.

Also, as a side note...Vizka. Urgrrrrrrh.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: clunylooney on April 01, 2020, 01:38:39 AM
I like to think he was the ruler of all the vermin, in a time before salamandastron had a badger lord. He was known to all but was slain, but was remembered for eternity. I like to think he is the one to send the villains dreams of their own demise and things like that, like with Cluny and Gabool and I like to think Vulpuz was the one to whisper to cluny that his nightmares would soon be over. I like to think he was the very first Marlfox and that is why he was in charge, he was basically magic in their eyes and was extremely clever and powerful. I agree he is kind of like martin, but instead of helping his vermin, he was the one to gladly take their souls. That is what I believe.
Title: Re: Lord Vulpuz, Lord of Hellgates
Post by: clunylooney on April 01, 2020, 02:06:41 AM
Quote from: Ashleg on January 25, 2018, 01:14:14 PM
True there.

Also, as a side note...Vizka. Urgrrrrrrh.
What do you mean by that?