Redwall Abbey

Brian Jacques' Works (Spoilers) => Character Discussion => Topic started by: Wylder Treejumper on January 27, 2016, 02:17:32 AM

Title: Mary-Sues
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on January 27, 2016, 02:17:32 AM
We had a good discussion going on this back at the old forum. What mary-sues come to mind from Redwall? Personally, I always though Mariel was a sue, but never Rose.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Jetthebinturong on January 27, 2016, 02:21:40 AM
Almost all of the main male protagonists. Particularly Martin and Deyna.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on January 27, 2016, 02:31:32 AM
I don't know about Martin. He almost died several times. Tsarmina would have killed him sans her fear of water, I think.

As for Deyna, I agree there. Still, I thought he was a good character, sueishness notwithstanding.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Groddil on January 27, 2016, 03:28:22 AM
Serious Spoiler, How could you ever know this character was a Mary-Sue, I mean come on, they're so perfect, leave them alone, cheese, 3i91nrifoqefnwsfm!
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/redwall/images/f/f0/TrissUS.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/240?cb=20080501071728)
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On a more serious side, Tvtropes has some good info on how Deyna's morality code doesn't work. He's been brought up to be a ruthless killing machine, every other creature in the tribe are evil and vicious, so there is no way that he could be good somehow, especially since he does not remember Redwall or his father or any other sources of "positiveness."
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on January 27, 2016, 03:33:25 AM
Not necessarily true. I've known some people who turned out very different from the way they should have according to their lives.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: The Skarzs on January 27, 2016, 04:01:52 AM
It would also have to do with personality. While he may not like killing or acting like vermin do, the only thing he was taught was killing and whatnot, so even if his personality was more like Redwallers', his morality would probably be the affected part of him. For example, instead of talking things out, a more immediate response to disagreements would be physical, since that is what he was taught and grew up with. Sure, he would probably learn, but it would never be the same.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: James Gryphon on January 27, 2016, 06:27:54 AM
The trouble with Deyna is that we already had a counterpart for how a character raised by the opposite side "should" be in Veil. Veil trended good with a dark streak up until he grew up, when he finally crossed over and became evil with a bright streak. Denya is good from the beginning, without ever experiencing any serious moral doubts or any transition from one side to another. Many of the good guys in the series have less qualms with hurting or 'mistreating' enemies than him. I think if you took Grath Longfletch's personality and plopped it into Deyna, that would probably be closer to what people would expect than what we got.

Anyway, on a more general note, here's a spreadsheet I made up ranking Sue-ishness (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PwiQ1hZqNutYpJhiRGBxFOkf7OtuSzZSgYewUA6Id-Q/edit?usp=sharing), covering most of the books I remember reading. I don't bother ranking villains. If there's a major secondary protagonist, they might be in there too. Suggestions for characters to put on the list are more than welcome.

I only consider a character "definitely a Sue" if they are Sue-y in both categories. Mariel, with her unmatched combat talent and informed character flaws, meets this. Tiria is appropriately the Queen of Sues by this standard. Meanwhile, characters like Redwall Matthias (who is a world-class fighter by the end of Redwall, but otherwise relatively ordinary), or Rose (who is beautiful, has an exquisite singing voice, and can make perfect imitations of bird noises, but is a terrible fighter) fall short. These characters might be Sues by other series' definitions, but to be a true Redwall Sue, you have to have a perfect storm of Sueness going; after all, incredible beauty, great singing, or brilliant swordsmanship in and of themselves aren't that hard to come by here.

Some of these characters are also ranked lower because I consider the villains they faced against to have been unusually weak. Triss isn't considered a fighting Sue simply because Kurda was awful, and beating her isn't much of an accomplishment. Rakkety Tam gets away with effortlessly eluding and sneaking through Gulo's horde because they're especially inept.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: rachel25 on January 27, 2016, 08:26:44 AM
Denya is still one of my favourite redwall characters, mostly I just the book. (I've read it about three times) But I did like him as a character. Compared to most I wouldn't rank him too high as a sue, there are way suer characters to be found.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Groddil on January 27, 2016, 10:29:30 AM
I'm in the middle of The Taggerung at the moment, and I quite like it, but nonetheless, Deyna seems too perfect. He just doesn't do anything wrong whatsoever.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: rachel25 on January 27, 2016, 11:35:57 AM
He can be a bit squeaky clean at times but doesn't change the fact that I love the book. Which is weird because I'm usually attracted to more grey characters with conflicting characteristics.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Banya on January 27, 2016, 12:58:36 PM
I'm with you there, Rachel.  I love the grey characters, but I love Deyna too.  I think that the immediate impression others have of him, as a tattooed rogue, and his fighting ability contrast with his gentle and caring personality so well that he doesn't immediately appear to be a sue (or a stu, or whatever the male equivalent is).  He also has something that other supposed mary-sue characters don't: he is able to live among the evil.  I'm not arguing that he's not a mary-sue character, because when analyzing him, he appears to be, but unlike Tiria and other mary-sue characters, he was accepted by the evil side.  Even though it was stated in the book that he had never taken another life, he did perform acts of strength and display talents while training with weapons (like Vallug training him in archery) that made him respected by the vermin.  Mariel lived among the vermin as a slave; she wasn't accepted by them.  His ability to live among them keeps him from being squeaky-clean in my eyes, and also makes his character more appealing.

It's been several years since reading Eulalia!, but would anyone who's read it a little more recently consider Salixa a sue?  When you replace fighting prowess with her healing abilities, she might qualify.  Mary-sues just have to have unrealistic abilities; those abilities don't necessarily have to be in combat.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Jetthebinturong on January 27, 2016, 04:42:04 PM
Regarding Martin: A Sue is not a character that can't be defeated; a Sue is usually a character with no negative qualities. Can anyone think of negative qualities that Martin has? Because I can't.

Also James, how does your chart work? You give a number for their fighting prowess (which is less significant than their personality traits), a number for "everything else" and then a completely unrelated number as a total? What?
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: The Skarzs on January 27, 2016, 06:52:38 PM
I was confused by that as well.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Rainshadow on January 27, 2016, 08:17:09 PM
Quote from: Jet the binturong on January 27, 2016, 04:42:04 PM
Also James, how does your chart work? You give a number for their fighting prowess (which is less significant than their personality traits), a number for "everything else" and then a completely unrelated number as a total? What?

  The "Fighting" and "Everything Else" numbers are squared.  ;)
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Skyblade on January 28, 2016, 01:43:09 AM
I haven't read Taggerung yet, but I'll go off what I've heard about Deyna. If he was raised in an environment with only evil influences, where did he even get the idea of being good in the first place?

Are "good beasts" (mice, squirrels, badgers, etc.) just born with an ethical conduct that intrinsically makes them well, good? Likewise, are vermin just inherently evil? That would explain why Veil didn't turn out good even though he grew up in Redwall, while Deyna didn't turn out bad after being raised by vermin.

In addition, if that is the norm, it may lesson Deyna's Sueness since he's just following an established trait of his species. On the other hand, if this morality is not innate, it makes it even more likely that Deyna is a Sue because it means he's unreasonably virtuous for some reason.

I've also heard that Deyna survived something that should have probably killed him.

Quote from: Banya on January 27, 2016, 12:58:36 PMIt's been several years since reading Eulalia!, but would anyone who's read it a little more recently consider Salixa a sue?  When you replace fighting prowess with her healing abilities, she might qualify.  Mary-sues just have to have unrealistic abilities; those abilities don't necessarily have to be in combat.

The skill does have to be useful, though; it's not Sue-ish to be impressive at underwater basket weaving ;) Anyway, good points. I have the novel with me, and Salixa does seem to be in Sue territory.

She's good at:
- Healing. "He's teaching me to be a healer, I know lots of plants and herbs, even tree barks and roots." (page 273)
- Fighting. Salixa immediately proved she was no helpless maid. Unwinding a slingshot from her slender waist, she gathered up a few of the hard streambed pebbles which had been thrown by the Brownrats and began retaliating vigorously. (page 300)
- Singing. Everybeast heard the plaintive sweet voice, which, though gentle, seemed to radiate around the plateau. (page 346)

Other facts. Not sure if they're Sue-ish, but worth considering:
- She had a traumatic childhood. She didn't know her parents, and she was tortured by a vermin band.
- Gorath was fond of her right after he met her.
- She's slender, while most badgers are bulky, and she is considered beautiful.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Groddil on January 28, 2016, 01:46:03 AM
The Mary-Sue tester has options for those last three points. They're all considered Sue-ish.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Ashleg on January 28, 2016, 12:47:14 PM
I just finished reading Taggerung a few days ago, and I didn't think Denya was a sue...Just a nice guy that was raised in the wrong place. And because he was chosen as the "Taggerung", he has to be naturally stronger than the other creatures, just because that is how a Taggerung is.
Judging by the book, there were vermin like that, and vermin are usually portrayed as weak--at least, they turn out to be.

Or maybe I'm just too defensive of Denya.  ;D
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: rachel25 on January 28, 2016, 01:54:12 PM
I don't like the idea that all vermin are bad and all woodlanders are good. (just read my RP and you'll see that.  ;))  But in Taggerung you have Nimbalo who's father was a woodlander and not a nice guy and yes Nimbalo was a pathological lair but he was still a good guy despite being raised by an abusive father. Denya was raised in a tribe of vermin but still believed in right and wrong. Some people are just nice people no matter what they go through or who their raised by. Having just read his wiki page I think I can rightfully say that just because he was a excellent fighter and tracker it doesn't make him a sue. He was trained all his life and he was the Taggerung anyway.
(I don't even know if this post makes sense.  :P)
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Skyblade on January 28, 2016, 01:55:41 PM
What about Deyna unfeasibly surviving a wound? (I haven't read the book, so I don't have full details. But I've heard)

Quote from: Groddil on January 28, 2016, 01:46:03 AM
The Mary-Sue tester has options for those last three points. They're all considered Sue-ish.
Ah, thanks :)
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: rachel25 on January 28, 2016, 01:58:37 PM
It could be argued that he'd gone into a bloodwrath rage thing and badgers survived wounds because of that. And he actually only survived because the Skipper took him to The otter fixer. An old female otter who was an expert Healer and a bit of a hermit.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Skyblade on January 28, 2016, 02:04:58 PM
Ah, thanks for the info.

Quote from: Jet the binturong on January 27, 2016, 04:42:04 PM
Regarding Martin: A Sue is not a character that can't be defeated; a Sue is usually a character with no negative qualities. Can anyone think of negative qualities that Martin has? Because I can't.

Good point. And I can't think of any, either.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Jetthebinturong on January 28, 2016, 02:15:23 PM
It's the same thing with Deyna; he has no negative qualities, despite being raised by a tribe of bloodthirsty warriors.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: rachel25 on January 28, 2016, 04:01:09 PM
Martin lied to Gonff about his past.

(I rather feel like the characters lawyer in all this.  :P)
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Skyblade on January 28, 2016, 04:07:30 PM
And I feel like a Devil's advocate ;)
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: rachel25 on January 28, 2016, 04:12:34 PM
 :D
I'm frantically looking back through the wikis as I haven't read the books in years now.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Jetthebinturong on January 28, 2016, 04:15:34 PM
Quote from: rachel25 on January 28, 2016, 04:01:09 PM
Martin lied to Gonff about his past.

(I rather feel like the characters lawyer in all this.  :P)

Since Martin the Warrior was written after Mossflower, he didn't have a backstory at this time.

BUT if we are to use this as an argument, my answer is this: So what? Sometimes you don't want to tell people things, and Gonff doesn't seem like the type to take "no" for an answer when he's interested in something, therefore giving him a simplified version of the truth is entirely justified, and thus not immoral, and thus not a negative quality.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on January 28, 2016, 07:48:18 PM
The question is, then: Was it even possible for Martin not to be a sue? He is, after all, the driving force behind much of the series.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Jetthebinturong on January 28, 2016, 08:01:32 PM
Yes it was very possible. Have the abbey-dwellers hero-worship him and think him infallible, then when you actually write about him, make him into an actual person with flaws.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Skyblade on January 28, 2016, 10:53:12 PM
I've checked out James' chart, and I don't think Felldoh is a Sue. Yes, he was a good fighter, but what else was he good at? Not to mention that he had a clear weakness: rage. The anger he felt towards Marshank, even if it was somewhat understandable, led to a hasty duel with Badrang. He did kill 20 or 30 (forgot exact number) vermin single-handedly, but that may be possible with Bloodwrath. I find it unlikely that a character whose greatest weakness led to his demise is a Sue.

Quote from: rachel25 on January 28, 2016, 04:01:09 PM
Martin lied to Gonff about his past.

He wasn't outright lying; he just didn't tell the entire story. And that was to keep Noonvale and his friends secret. Not sure if the moral code was broken, but either way, his action was well-intentioned... and that weakens the "Martin did something wrong" incident.

Quote from: Jet the binturong on January 28, 2016, 08:01:32 PM
Yes it was very possible. Have the abbey-dwellers hero-worship him and think him infallible, then when you actually write about him, make him into an actual person with flaws.

Well said. That would have been nice to see.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: James Gryphon on January 28, 2016, 11:00:31 PM
I'll get into the explanation and defense of the chart and the ratings I chose, and other Sue-related commentary, later... right now I'm on a phone.

I did want to say, though , that Martin's past was more than just omissions of fact. In one part he fondly recalls for Gonff an anecdote about fighting off vermin while his father lay injured in a cave giving instructions. The Martin we read about from the other two books was clearly too young at the time his father was there for that to have ever happened.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Jetthebinturong on January 28, 2016, 11:01:57 PM
That can be put down to Jacques forgetting what he'd already written about the character.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: James Gryphon on January 28, 2016, 11:04:55 PM
Maybe it could, but when you're explaining a character's statements in a series, that doesn't work. The result is that Martin (or Bella) told an unfactual story, whether Mr. Jacques meant them to or not.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Banya on January 29, 2016, 06:03:28 AM
On the subject of Martin's past, Martin promises Rowanoak and Grumm (there were others present too, but I don't recall who) while recovering in the home of Polleekin at the end of Martin the Warrior that he would never tell anyone about their time and adventures together, because he wanted to protect all of his friends in Noonvale.  While Mossflower was written before Martin the Warrior, the past that he tells Gonff doesn't have to match his actual past, because he swore to never speak of Noonvale and his friends there again.  We know that the story he tells Gonff is a lie because he was too young to lift his father's sword when it was taken from him by Badrang.  Martin's parting promise to Rowanoak and the others was a convenient addition to the story and allowed Jacques to do as he wanted with Martin's past, as it's possible he hadn't completely decided on what kind of past he wanted Martin to have when he wrote about the battle for Mossflower and the founding of Redwall Abbey.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Captain Tammo on February 11, 2016, 06:04:53 AM
Quote from: James Gryphon on January 27, 2016, 06:27:54 AM
Anyway, on a more general note, here's a spreadsheet I made up ranking Sue-ishness (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PwiQ1hZqNutYpJhiRGBxFOkf7OtuSzZSgYewUA6Id-Q/edit?usp=sharing), covering most of the books I remember reading. I don't bother ranking villains. If there's a major secondary protagonist, they might be in there too. Suggestions for characters to put on the list are more than welcome.

Love the spreadsheet, James! As an engineering student, you gotta have an appreciation for those things. I always liked characters like Tammo and Luke because they were capable of being defeated in some fights, yet still had that special something which earned them a top spot (admittedly, I'm also a huge fan of High Rhulain, whether Tiria is the ultimate Sue or not). Being the fanfic geek I am, I wonder if this is something I could adapt to some of the fanfic characters from the old forum? Could be fun- essentially a way to compare characters based on numbers (and a lot of opinion, but hey, I like the idea)! I'm curious to see what someone else would think of some of my characters, too. There's certainly a bit of Sue-ness to Capt. Leo.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Hickory on February 12, 2016, 11:08:54 PM
@Tamleo:

Here (//http://://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm) is a useful Mary Sue test for characters, OC, fanfiction or otherwise.


As to Mary-Sues in the books, I'd like to offer up Songbreeze Swifteye (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Abbess_Songbreeze_Swifteye) from Marlfox. She's another "beautiful singer" who charms the heart out of gruff male characters like Dippler, who can also hold her own and thinks quick on her feet. Who's the one who wields the sacred weapon of the water vole tribe? Song. Who's the one out of the four main protagonists who hasn't messed up prior to the break-in by Marlfoxes of the Abbey during the attack our on the path? Songbreeze.

Yiss yiss.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Ashleg on February 12, 2016, 11:44:48 PM
I also thought Songbreeze was a Mary-Sue!
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Groddil on February 12, 2016, 11:49:05 PM
Yeah, I didn't like Song that much. Even in Taggerung she's still referred to as perfect, and it just annoys me. She had to have done SOMETHING wrong at least.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Ashleg on February 12, 2016, 11:59:36 PM
The wrongest thing she'd done was become a Mary-Sue. XD
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Groddil on February 13, 2016, 12:07:34 AM
Such trueness.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Ashleg on February 13, 2016, 12:10:35 AM
Such wow.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Groddil on February 13, 2016, 12:14:41 AM
Ashleg
http://www.loamhedgeabbey.com/index.php/topic,109.45.html (http://www.loamhedgeabbey.com/index.php/topic,109.45.html)
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Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Ashleg on February 13, 2016, 12:16:26 AM
Many Doge. XD

Okaaay. Any other Mary-Sues? Otherwise, we'll get SUED for turning this into a Doge thread!
((I'm sorry. Ashleg likes making bad puns.))
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Groddil on February 13, 2016, 12:20:58 AM
Well, there's always:

Spoiler
(http://www.sullivanet.com/redwall/encyc/scans/triss/triss-on-cover.jpg)
The infamous Triss.
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Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Ashleg on February 13, 2016, 12:23:36 AM
I just started that book and I already agree! But no spoilers please.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Groddil on February 13, 2016, 12:24:59 AM
I just started to reread it now, actually.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on February 14, 2016, 02:01:53 AM
Quote from: Sagetip on February 12, 2016, 11:08:54 PM
@Tamleo:

Here (//http://://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm) is a useful Mary Sue test for characters, OC, fanfiction or otherwise.


As to Mary-Sues in the books, I'd like to offer up Songbreeze Swifteye (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Abbess_Songbreeze_Swifteye) from Marlfox. She's another "beautiful singer" who charms the heart out of gruff male characters like Dippler, who can also hold her own and thinks quick on her feet. Who's the one who wields the sacred weapon of the water vole tribe? Song. Who's the one out of the four main protagonists who hasn't messed up prior to the break-in by Marlfoxes of the Abbey during the attack our on the path? Songbreeze.

Yiss yiss.

I'll have to disagree with you there. I never thought Song was a sue. Sure she gets a sacred water-vole staff thingy, but it's not as though she ever fights all that well with it. Indeed, she's rather a failure as a fighter. For example, see the event where she is on sentry duty.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Ashleg on February 14, 2016, 02:31:03 AM
She just seemed like a "too perfect" and bland character to me. I actually forgot about her until I read Taggerung.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Hickory on February 14, 2016, 10:41:19 PM
Quote from: Wylder Treejumper on February 14, 2016, 02:01:53 AM
Quote from: Sagetip on February 12, 2016, 11:08:54 PM
@Tamleo:

Here (//http://://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm) is a useful Mary Sue test for characters, OC, fanfiction or otherwise.


As to Mary-Sues in the books, I'd like to offer up Songbreeze Swifteye (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Abbess_Songbreeze_Swifteye) from Marlfox. She's another "beautiful singer" who charms the heart out of gruff male characters like Dippler, who can also hold her own and thinks quick on her feet. Who's the one who wields the sacred weapon of the water vole tribe? Song. Who's the one out of the four main protagonists who hasn't messed up prior to the break-in by Marlfoxes of the Abbey during the attack our on the path? Songbreeze.

Yiss yiss.

I'll have to disagree with you there. I never thought Song was a sue. Sure she gets a sacred water-vole staff thingy, but it's not as though she ever fights all that well with it. Indeed, she's rather a failure as a fighter. For example, see the event where she is on sentry duty.
In Great Hall, when the Marlfoxes broke in, used Nutwing as a living shield, stopping her from attacking? I'm too lazy to pick up Marlfox from the shelf, but maybe the wiki has some information. Check for edits.

EDIT: Just checked. It doesn't say anything about her fighting skills. When was the last time you read Marlfox?
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Groddil on February 14, 2016, 10:50:45 PM
I just started Triss, so I read Marlfox in January.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: LT Sandpaw on February 14, 2016, 10:58:55 PM
 
Song's Fighting skills
I'm pretty sure she fought a total of twice, once when they were ambushed by the Marlfoxes and Water rats in the great hall, and again when her and Dan rush a gang of ferrets. I have to assume she is pretty good at fighting because the second time she fights, her and Dan charge a gang of twelve ferrets I believe. While Dan beats up the leader she fights the other eleven off. (Though the book doesn't go into the specifics.) so yeah.

While it does mention the most of the ferrets were somehow terrified of two slingers, (Which I can tell you from experience slings takes some time to load and shoot) but there was still eleven of them, so I must assume she did some fighting with her staff.

That being said Song did get clonked in the great hall pretty easily. But the situation was bad, she did get a dead owl got shoved in her face, and her friend just got smashed in the head by an axe, so it is understandable she didn't see the spear haft in time to block it.
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Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Groddil on February 14, 2016, 11:09:14 PM
I groaned in pain when I started reading Taggerung and Cregga began to go on and on about "The beautiful, wonderful, perfect Abbess Songbreeze." At least Mhera had no idea how to solve that _ITAGALL thing.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Captain Tammo on February 16, 2016, 10:29:51 PM
Quote from: Sagetip on February 12, 2016, 11:08:54 PM
@Tamleo:

Here (http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm) is a useful Mary Sue test for characters, OC, fanfiction or otherwise.


Just took the quiz. Got a score of 29 for Leonardo (my fanfic's main character) - so he's not quite a sue but the site says any worse and he would be. 29 is still in the safe-ish region though, so at least that's a plus!

I have a question: do you guys think Ublaz Madeyes was sue-like at all? What about Martin II (I think he was pretty sue-esque)
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Delthion on September 04, 2016, 10:58:27 PM
The worst Mary-Sue that I have ever encountered was in the Peleg Chronicles and her name was Suzy. Very evil child, one wanted to boil her in oil.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Ashleg on September 06, 2016, 04:11:50 AM
...Sounds like the same Suzy from Phineas and Ferb.
Dang, I feel for anyone with the name 'Suzy'. They get a bad rep. x"D
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: belle on September 11, 2016, 05:10:56 PM
Technically, judging by the standards of the quizzes and articles found on the Internet, almost all Redwall heroes are Mary Sues. They often have skills that are rarely ever realistic, or gain skills or positions of power at unrealistically young ages and / or in unrealistically short amounts of time, and have either no flaws or have flaws that they get over very quickly and that dont cause them real problems.
I think characters tend to be labeled Mary Sues if the reader doesnt like them.
BTW, I like Rose and not Mariel, too. I'm just saying.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: belle on September 11, 2016, 05:29:17 PM
I'm really not one to complain about a character being a Mary Sue if its a Redwall character. I prefer Redwall books and movies with "squeaky clean" characters and good morals to alot of other trashy books with annoying, cliched "dark" characters who try to seem flawed. Of course, when the writer knows how to create a balance between good characteristics and flaws that are actually interesting and meaningful, that's cool, too.
I tend to think more in terms of whether I liked the character or not. The Taggerung was the second Redwall book I read as a kid, so the fact that Deyna was an otter amongst vermin wasn't a big deal to me the way it was when I read Outcast many books later. I did enjoy Taggerung very much, it was my first glimpse of Redwall Abbey (the first book I'd read was Lord Brocktree, which was set in Salamandastron), but looking back, I can see how it faltered, not because of having a near to perfect hero, but because, if they were going to do that, I cant see the point in having him be an otter raised among vermin anyway. There was no real conflict from what I saw, there were no bumps he had to go over on his way to deciding to be good. Also, even in reading Taggerung the first time, I didn't like his attitude when he was with the vermin; something about it irked me, and i wanted to see him taken down a peg or two in a way I didn't with mist other Redwall heroes.
As for Tiria - I dont dwell on her as a Mary Sue, but, God, I hate her name. I also wasn't crazy about the book when compared to other Redwall books and didn't find her terribly interesting, but don't hate her, either. I guess not all Redwall books can be like Mossflower or Pearls of Lutra.
As for Salixia, she's more of a portrait of perfection and angelic beauty than a real character, and I used to make jokes about how pointless the Tabura character was, but nothing surprises me in Redwall, lol. At least one of my favorite Redwall songs was sung by Salixia. Or was it Salixa? God, can't remember.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: belle on September 11, 2016, 05:30:43 PM
Double post.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Delthion on September 11, 2016, 05:31:02 PM
Belle, just a word of advise, the Mods/Admins/Tyrants of the forum. ;D Don't like us double-posting, use the shiny modify button in the top right corner.

/me is so happy that he can finally say this again. ;D
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Groddil on September 11, 2016, 09:45:24 PM
Or triple-posting. :p
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on September 17, 2016, 06:45:03 PM
In truth, I must agree with Belle here. It's so easy to point and say: That character is unrealistic and has unrealistic luck, abilities, and situations! At the same time though, Redwall is, if we come down to it, escapist fantasy, and a fine piece of escapist fantasy it is. Nothing wrong with the genre. If the characters were normal, led normal lives and had normal circumstances, it would get pretty boring. A Redwall book that was solely normal life in Camp Tussock would get pretty boring after a while. Part of the point of the main characters being main characters is that they are unusual! These are legends, and you don't get to be a legend by being average.

Instead of focusing solely over whether a character is unrealistic or not- because face it, the great majority of them are, from our perspective, but they are not terribly unusual in the Redwall universe- we should focus on identifying character depth. Beasts like Scarum are entirely one-dimensional, and as such are more caricatures than characters, but Hon Rosie is more dimensional than she appears.

In any case, some of my favorite characters happen to be sues, and I think we denigrate a bit unfairly on this subject. You can have a good character that is a sue, if she is well-executed.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: alexandre on September 22, 2016, 01:43:01 AM
Quote from: belle on September 11, 2016, 05:29:17 PM
I'm really not one to complain about a character being a Mary Sue if its a Redwall character. I prefer Redwall books and movies with "squeaky clean" characters and good morals to a lot of other trashy books with annoying, cliched "dark" characters who try to seem flawed. Of course, when the writer knows how to create a balance between good characteristics and flaws that are actually interesting and meaningful, that's cool, too.
I tend to think more in terms of whether I liked the character or not. The Taggerung was the second Redwall book I read as a kid, so the fact that Deyna was an otter amongst vermin wasn't a big deal to me the way it was when I read Outcast many books later.

I would just like to say this, why the heck do people always talk about Veil and Deyna with the Vermin to Woodlander relationships and characteristics? It is like everyone has forgotten about the great Blaggut. Blaggut is my favorite character out of any book ever.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on September 22, 2016, 01:50:21 AM
Blaggut is pretty amazing. Not remotely a sue, though...
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Ashleg on September 22, 2016, 01:53:06 AM
Not a Sue, but he was awesome.
He reminds me of some Disney character whom I can't recall the name...
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: alexandre on September 22, 2016, 02:00:01 AM
Quote from: Wylder Treejumper on September 22, 2016, 01:50:21 AM
Blaggut is pretty amazing. Not remotely a sue, though...
I know, But I saw Belle's quote as an opportunity to make my point, even though it is a bit off topic
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: belle on September 22, 2016, 04:58:51 AM
@Wylder Treejumper @Ashleg @alexandre Blaggut was the best part about the Bellmaker!!!
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: The Skarzs on September 22, 2016, 05:10:44 AM
@Wylder: Very well said.

Looking back, I must agree as well that a lot of characters are Mary Sues from a writer's stand point, but in a way, the stories they are put into [sometimes] make it acceptable.
And really, did we not still enjoy most of the books despite the Sues?
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Ashleg on September 23, 2016, 02:14:00 AM
In all honesty, the only reason I finished reading Triss was because I want to one day be able to say I read the entire Redwall series.
She was pretty much the Sue of Sues, and the other characters weren't much better.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: alexandre on September 23, 2016, 02:29:44 AM
Quote from: belle on September 22, 2016, 04:58:51 AM
@Wylder Treejumper @Ashleg @alexandre Blaggut was the best part about the Bellmaker!!!
The Best Part of Redwall too, second only to Gonff The Prince of Mousthieves.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on September 25, 2016, 02:33:05 AM
*Raises eyebrow*

A bit much, doncha think? There's a lot of good things about the Redwall series, and I wouldn't call any one character "the best thing about it."
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: alexandre on September 25, 2016, 03:36:09 AM
Quote from: Wylder Treejumper on September 25, 2016, 02:33:05 AM
*Raises eyebrow*

A bit much, doncha think? There's a lot of good things about the Redwall series, and I wouldn't call any one character "the best thing about it."

Well... I would.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: The Skarzs on September 25, 2016, 04:21:53 AM
:P

What would be the best thing about the series? Sounds like a topic unto its own. . .
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Tiria Wildlough on April 04, 2017, 08:43:48 AM
Super interesting topic! The Sues in Redwall used to bug me a lot, but I've come to realize that Redwall isn't the kind of fiction where the characters need to be complex and flawed. I see them as sort of like, legends or something like that, where the characters are larger than life and don't need to be realistic. As someone (I forgot who) said, it's escapist fantasy, and there's nothing wrong with that. The idea of Sues shouldn't apply in stories like that.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Ashleg on April 04, 2017, 01:22:34 PM
Sues are okay when they have reason.
Martin, for example, is supposed to be Redwall's guardian angel and the great liberator from the past; okay, I get that.
Matthias is Martin, so if he's perfect it makes sense, but what irks me is when a character comes out of nowhere and is unexplainably (and without reason) "perfect".

You can have escapist fantasy and legends where the characters aren't so flawless that they annoy the majority of readers.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: clunylooney on April 30, 2020, 05:19:10 PM
Quote from: James Gryphon on January 27, 2016, 06:27:54 AM
The trouble with Deyna is that we already had a counterpart for how a character raised by the opposite side "should" be in Veil. Veil trended good with a dark streak up until he grew up, when he finally crossed over and became evil with a bright streak. Denya is good from the beginning, without ever experiencing any serious moral doubts or any transition from one side to another. Many of the good guys in the series have less qualms with hurting or 'mistreating' enemies than him. I think if you took Grath Longfletch's personality and plopped it into Deyna, that would probably be closer to what people would expect than what we got.

Anyway, on a more general note, here's a spreadsheet I made up ranking Sue-ishness (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PwiQ1hZqNutYpJhiRGBxFOkf7OtuSzZSgYewUA6Id-Q/edit?usp=sharing), covering most of the books I remember reading. I don't bother ranking villains. If there's a major secondary protagonist, they might be in there too. Suggestions for characters to put on the list are more than welcome.

I only consider a character "definitely a Sue" if they are Sue-y in both categories. Mariel, with her unmatched combat talent and informed character flaws, meets this. Tiria is appropriately the Queen of Sues by this standard. Meanwhile, characters like Redwall Matthias (who is a world-class fighter by the end of Redwall, but otherwise relatively ordinary), or Rose (who is beautiful, has an exquisite singing voice, and can make perfect imitations of bird noises, but is a terrible fighter) fall short. These characters might be Sues by other series' definitions, but to be a true Redwall Sue, you have to have a perfect storm of Sueness going; after all, incredible beauty, great singing, or brilliant swordsmanship in and of themselves aren't that hard to come by here.

Some of these characters are also ranked lower because I consider the villains they faced against to have been unusually weak. Triss isn't considered a fighting Sue simply because Kurda was awful, and beating her isn't much of an accomplishment. Rakkety Tam gets away with effortlessly eluding and sneaking through Gulo's horde because they're especially inept.
Why are your posts always so long?
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Scott McLamok on May 03, 2020, 06:27:56 PM
Teer is a Mary Sue......
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Sebias of Redwall on May 03, 2020, 08:51:55 PM
Honestly, I have to agree with a lot of the other people who have said that Redwall has a healthy spoonful of Mary/Gary Sue characters. But that's only using certain peoples' charts. But besides a selected few (Boy, Triss comes to mind. *Shudders*) I don't really mind them. I think it really depends on the context of the story.

Quote from: Scott McLamok on May 03, 2020, 06:27:56 PM
Teer is a Mary Sue......
Er, what? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Booklover on May 03, 2020, 08:54:15 PM
Real people can't be Mary Sues, because if they could be that perfect, Mary Sues wouldn't be as much of a problem.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Sebias of Redwall on May 03, 2020, 08:59:19 PM
What about you, Bookie? Do you feel like any of the Redwall characters were Mary Sues?

Quote from: Booklover on May 03, 2020, 08:54:15 PM
Real people can't be Mary Sues, because if they could be that perfect, Mary Sues wouldn't be as much of a problem.
Exactly.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: shisteer of nothing much on May 04, 2020, 01:35:35 AM
Honestly, I hadn't even heard about the concept of Mary-Sues until about a year ago, and I've never really dwelt on it. There are characters that are too perfect and other characters that are written in such a way that they're not too perfect at all, despite their flawlessness.

Quote from: Scott McLamok on May 03, 2020, 06:27:56 PM
Teer is a Mary Sue......
I'm honoured that you think me so flawless. Unfortunately, it's not true.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: clunylooney on May 04, 2020, 01:44:45 AM
How about I mention the worst mary-sue of all time? Trisscar gosh darn Swordmaid. Who else hates her?
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: shisteer of nothing much on May 04, 2020, 05:24:58 AM
No need to add expletives there. I haven't read Triss yet but I'm pretty sure 'gosh darn' was not part of her name. Just because she wasn't perfect (or was perfect, as the case may be) doesn't mean you need to be rude.
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: clunylooney on May 04, 2020, 02:10:07 PM
Quote from: shisteer of nothing much on May 04, 2020, 05:24:58 AM
No need to add expletives there. I haven't read Triss yet but I'm pretty sure 'gosh darn' was not part of her name. Just because she wasn't perfect (or was perfect, as the case may be) doesn't mean you need to be rude.
Yeah sorry. Just talking about Trisscar gets on my nerves. It's not even that she's great at everything, she's just so boring! And you are correct in saying 'gosh darn' was not part of her name. ::)
Title: Re: Mary-Sues
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on May 04, 2020, 05:47:43 PM
I hold with my previous statement, that Redwall, by its particular genre conventions, generates a lot of characters which in other settings would be called 'Mary-Sues' and would be poor characters, but in context are not badly used. Redwall is not written to explore moral dynamics, it is a simple good vs. evil legendary-type tale in which the two sides are visibly separated (vermin vs. woodlanders)- not as any sort of statement, but as a simplifying convention that allows you to focus on other aspects of the story. Having large moral flaws in the protagonists (and even most of the supporting cast) would undermine one of the main enjoyments of the series, which is simply in contemplating the joy of the Redwall community. Feasts, friendship, good will, bravery in defense of friend and kin, a beautiful natural setting and the inevitable triumph of good over evil are the point of the series, and not the window dressing.