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Author Topic: Mary-Sues  (Read 3590 times)

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Groddil

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2016, 11:09:14 PM »

I groaned in pain when I started reading Taggerung and Cregga began to go on and on about "The beautiful, wonderful, perfect Abbess Songbreeze." At least Mhera had no idea how to solve that _ITAGALL thing.
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Captain Tammo

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2016, 10:29:51 PM »

@Tamleo:

Here is a useful Mary Sue test for characters, OC, fanfiction or otherwise.


Just took the quiz. Got a score of 29 for Leonardo (my fanfic's main character) - so he's not quite a sue but the site says any worse and he would be. 29 is still in the safe-ish region though, so at least that's a plus!

I have a question: do you guys think Ublaz Madeyes was sue-like at all? What about Martin II (I think he was pretty sue-esque)
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Delthion

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2016, 10:58:27 PM »

The worst Mary-Sue that I have ever encountered was in the Peleg Chronicles and her name was Suzy. Very evil child, one wanted to boil her in oil.
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Ashleg

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2016, 04:11:50 AM »

...Sounds like the same Suzy from Phineas and Ferb.
Dang, I feel for anyone with the name 'Suzy'. They get a bad rep. x"D
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belle

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2016, 05:10:56 PM »

Technically, judging by the standards of the quizzes and articles found on the Internet, almost all Redwall heroes are Mary Sues. They often have skills that are rarely ever realistic, or gain skills or positions of power at unrealistically young ages and / or in unrealistically short amounts of time, and have either no flaws or have flaws that they get over very quickly and that dont cause them real problems.
I think characters tend to be labeled Mary Sues if the reader doesnt like them.
BTW, I like Rose and not Mariel, too. I'm just saying.
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belle

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2016, 05:29:17 PM »

I'm really not one to complain about a character being a Mary Sue if its a Redwall character. I prefer Redwall books and movies with "squeaky clean" characters and good morals to alot of other trashy books with annoying, cliched "dark" characters who try to seem flawed. Of course, when the writer knows how to create a balance between good characteristics and flaws that are actually interesting and meaningful, that's cool, too.
I tend to think more in terms of whether I liked the character or not. The Taggerung was the second Redwall book I read as a kid, so the fact that Deyna was an otter amongst vermin wasn't a big deal to me the way it was when I read Outcast many books later. I did enjoy Taggerung very much, it was my first glimpse of Redwall Abbey (the first book I'd read was Lord Brocktree, which was set in Salamandastron), but looking back, I can see how it faltered, not because of having a near to perfect hero, but because, if they were going to do that, I cant see the point in having him be an otter raised among vermin anyway. There was no real conflict from what I saw, there were no bumps he had to go over on his way to deciding to be good. Also, even in reading Taggerung the first time, I didn't like his attitude when he was with the vermin; something about it irked me, and i wanted to see him taken down a peg or two in a way I didn't with mist other Redwall heroes.
As for Tiria - I dont dwell on her as a Mary Sue, but, God, I hate her name. I also wasn't crazy about the book when compared to other Redwall books and didn't find her terribly interesting, but don't hate her, either. I guess not all Redwall books can be like Mossflower or Pearls of Lutra.
As for Salixia, she's more of a portrait of perfection and angelic beauty than a real character, and I used to make jokes about how pointless the Tabura character was, but nothing surprises me in Redwall, lol. At least one of my favorite Redwall songs was sung by Salixia. Or was it Salixa? God, can't remember.
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belle

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2016, 05:30:43 PM »

Double post.
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Delthion

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2016, 05:31:02 PM »

Belle, just a word of advise, the Mods/Admins/Tyrants of the forum. ;D Don't like us double-posting, use the shiny modify button in the top right corner.

* Delthion is so happy that he can finally say this again. ;D
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Groddil

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2016, 09:45:24 PM »

Or triple-posting. :p
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Wylder Treejumper

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2016, 06:45:03 PM »

In truth, I must agree with Belle here. It's so easy to point and say: That character is unrealistic and has unrealistic luck, abilities, and situations! At the same time though, Redwall is, if we come down to it, escapist fantasy, and a fine piece of escapist fantasy it is. Nothing wrong with the genre. If the characters were normal, led normal lives and had normal circumstances, it would get pretty boring. A Redwall book that was solely normal life in Camp Tussock would get pretty boring after a while. Part of the point of the main characters being main characters is that they are unusual! These are legends, and you don't get to be a legend by being average.

Instead of focusing solely over whether a character is unrealistic or not- because face it, the great majority of them are, from our perspective, but they are not terribly unusual in the Redwall universe- we should focus on identifying character depth. Beasts like Scarum are entirely one-dimensional, and as such are more caricatures than characters, but Hon Rosie is more dimensional than she appears.

In any case, some of my favorite characters happen to be sues, and I think we denigrate a bit unfairly on this subject. You can have a good character that is a sue, if she is well-executed.
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True worth is in being, not seeming-
In doing, each day that goes by,
Some little good- not in dreaming
Of great things to do by and by.
For whatever men say in their blindness
And spite of the fancies of youth,
There's nothing so kingly as kindness
And nothing so royal as truth.

Courage: not only the willingness to die manfully, but also the determination to live decently.
It is not the armor but the heart that makes a man a knight
 
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alexandre

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2016, 01:43:01 AM »

I'm really not one to complain about a character being a Mary Sue if its a Redwall character. I prefer Redwall books and movies with "squeaky clean" characters and good morals to a lot of other trashy books with annoying, cliched "dark" characters who try to seem flawed. Of course, when the writer knows how to create a balance between good characteristics and flaws that are actually interesting and meaningful, that's cool, too.
I tend to think more in terms of whether I liked the character or not. The Taggerung was the second Redwall book I read as a kid, so the fact that Deyna was an otter amongst vermin wasn't a big deal to me the way it was when I read Outcast many books later.

I would just like to say this, why the heck do people always talk about Veil and Deyna with the Vermin to Woodlander relationships and characteristics? It is like everyone has forgotten about the great Blaggut. Blaggut is my favorite character out of any book ever.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 01:47:30 AM by alexandre »
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Wylder Treejumper

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2016, 01:50:21 AM »

Blaggut is pretty amazing. Not remotely a sue, though...
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True worth is in being, not seeming-
In doing, each day that goes by,
Some little good- not in dreaming
Of great things to do by and by.
For whatever men say in their blindness
And spite of the fancies of youth,
There's nothing so kingly as kindness
And nothing so royal as truth.

Courage: not only the willingness to die manfully, but also the determination to live decently.
It is not the armor but the heart that makes a man a knight
 

Ashleg

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2016, 01:53:06 AM »

Not a Sue, but he was awesome.
He reminds me of some Disney character whom I can't recall the name...
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alexandre

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2016, 02:00:01 AM »

Blaggut is pretty amazing. Not remotely a sue, though...
I know, But I saw Belle's quote as an opportunity to make my point, even though it is a bit off topic
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Why they try to tear the mountains down to bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land

               ~ John Denver

And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

                ~ John Prine
 

belle

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2016, 04:58:51 AM »

@Wylder Treejumper @Ashleg @alexandre Blaggut was the best part about the Bellmaker!!!
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The Skarzs

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2016, 05:10:44 AM »

@Wylder: Very well said.

Looking back, I must agree as well that a lot of characters are Mary Sues from a writer's stand point, but in a way, the stories they are put into [sometimes] make it acceptable.
And really, did we not still enjoy most of the books despite the Sues?
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Ashleg

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2016, 02:14:00 AM »

In all honesty, the only reason I finished reading Triss was because I want to one day be able to say I read the entire Redwall series.
She was pretty much the Sue of Sues, and the other characters weren't much better.
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alexandre

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2016, 02:29:44 AM »

@Wylder Treejumper @Ashleg @alexandre Blaggut was the best part about the Bellmaker!!!
The Best Part of Redwall too, second only to Gonff The Prince of Mousthieves.
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Why they try to tear the mountains down to bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land

               ~ John Denver

And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

                ~ John Prine
 

Wylder Treejumper

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #68 on: September 25, 2016, 02:33:05 AM »

*Raises eyebrow*

A bit much, doncha think? There's a lot of good things about the Redwall series, and I wouldn't call any one character "the best thing about it."
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True worth is in being, not seeming-
In doing, each day that goes by,
Some little good- not in dreaming
Of great things to do by and by.
For whatever men say in their blindness
And spite of the fancies of youth,
There's nothing so kingly as kindness
And nothing so royal as truth.

Courage: not only the willingness to die manfully, but also the determination to live decently.
It is not the armor but the heart that makes a man a knight
 

alexandre

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #69 on: September 25, 2016, 03:36:09 AM »

*Raises eyebrow*

A bit much, doncha think? There's a lot of good things about the Redwall series, and I wouldn't call any one character "the best thing about it."

Well... I would.
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Why they try to tear the mountains down to bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land

               ~ John Denver

And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

                ~ John Prine
 

The Skarzs

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #70 on: September 25, 2016, 04:21:53 AM »

:P

What would be the best thing about the series? Sounds like a topic unto its own. . .
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Tiria Wildlough

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2017, 08:43:48 AM »

Super interesting topic! The Sues in Redwall used to bug me a lot, but I've come to realize that Redwall isn't the kind of fiction where the characters need to be complex and flawed. I see them as sort of like, legends or something like that, where the characters are larger than life and don't need to be realistic. As someone (I forgot who) said, it's escapist fantasy, and there's nothing wrong with that. The idea of Sues shouldn't apply in stories like that.
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Ashleg

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Re: Mary-Sues
« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2017, 01:22:34 PM »

Sues are okay when they have reason.
Martin, for example, is supposed to be Redwall's guardian angel and the great liberator from the past; okay, I get that.
Matthias is Martin, so if he's perfect it makes sense, but what irks me is when a character comes out of nowhere and is unexplainably (and without reason) "perfect".

You can have escapist fantasy and legends where the characters aren't so flawless that they annoy the majority of readers.
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"Heed not the rebel who scream REVOLUTION, they have not your interest at heart..."
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Gargamel is a good person.
 
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