Redwall Abbey

Brian Jacques' Works (Spoilers) => Character Discussion => Topic started by: Vilu Daskar on December 24, 2015, 10:24:55 PM

Title: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Vilu Daskar on December 24, 2015, 10:24:55 PM
Does it seem like vermin might have been tougher in Redwall to anyone else? Apparently it's a big deal that Cluny killed a ferret, but in the other books no one would have cared.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Tam and Martin on January 16, 2016, 04:33:40 PM
That is a good point.

I think it might have been so. As several people have pointed out, the first Redwall book was a start of a long series, thus BJ was figuring everything out that he wanted to include or exclude. That's why we see mentions of the mice having farm animals, and other various flaws. Maybe Brian was planning on having a special ranking for the vermin, ie. maybe rats would be the lowest order and then ferrets, stoats, weasels, and maybe a wearet or a wolverine at the top, I don't know. Kind of like a food chain for animal rankings. Curious thought though. I think as he got more developed in the books, Brian decided to just have them all equal in rank instead of having different leveled classes.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Sanddunes on September 03, 2017, 07:35:00 AM
I wise the Vermin were tougher one of the problems I had with these books is that the most villains were pretty much all the same just change the species.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Ashleg on September 03, 2017, 07:51:31 AM
I think there was a wide range in villains: from the ones that could effortlessly snap your back to the ones who are so weak they end up as comic relief (or good guys).
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Delthion on September 03, 2017, 07:55:28 AM
So good guys are weak? ;D
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Ashleg on September 03, 2017, 07:58:48 AM
Yes.

Or Sues.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Sanddunes on September 03, 2017, 08:09:35 AM
Quote from: Ashleg on September 03, 2017, 07:51:31 AM
I think there was a wide range in villains: from the ones that could effortlessly snap your back to the ones who are so weak they end up as comic relief (or good guys).

I wouldn't comic relief ones as villains. I just wise they were a lot better fighters at times
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Krantor the Brutal on September 23, 2017, 12:27:43 AM
Personally, I think a vermin lord is strong in the beginning of the book, but eventually weakens and it becomes a 50/50 battle against the hero, (like in Pearls of Lutra and The Long Patrol.) Other times, it seems he/she is too strong and external aid and wit is needed, (like in Rakkety Tam, Mattimeo and Redwall.)
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Ashleg on September 23, 2017, 02:01:51 AM
They usually lose their minds by the end of the book--and I don't blame them.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Sanddunes on September 23, 2017, 03:36:14 PM
Notice how sometimes if a vermin is brave (I'm talking mostly about the leaders) they're usually killed off or just mention
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Ashleg on September 23, 2017, 03:42:51 PM
Or it's made a big deal of and they turn out not to be brave at all.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: The Skarzs on September 23, 2017, 04:52:24 PM
Quote from: Sanddunes on September 23, 2017, 03:36:14 PM
Notice how sometimes if a vermin is brave (I'm talking mostly about the leaders) they're usually killed off or just mention
Yep. No vermin who is brave really ends up having that bravery come to use.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Sanddunes on September 24, 2017, 03:09:02 AM
Quote from: Ashleg on September 23, 2017, 03:42:51 PM
Or it's made a big deal of and they turn out not to be brave at all.

it's rare but they are brave vermin like Barranca who are not in the book very long
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Sanddunes on September 24, 2017, 03:15:43 AM
Quote from: The Skarzs on September 23, 2017, 04:52:24 PM
Quote from: Sanddunes on September 23, 2017, 03:36:14 PM
Notice how sometimes if a vermin is brave (I'm talking mostly about the leaders) they're usually killed off or just mention
Yep. No vermin who is brave really ends up having that bravery come to use.

kind of explains why they're not plus they wouldn't have their fiends helping them unlike the woodlanders who are also far better fighters   
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on September 24, 2017, 05:36:33 AM
@Sanddunes: You know, you bring up a good point there. If a vermin does happen to be brave, it is very likely they will be the only brave one in their group. That means that any brave action they do would have to be done by themselves, because their comrades are presumably cowardly. This means that any brave action would be at an automatic disadvantage, because it instantly loses any power of numbers vermin might have.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Captain Tammo on October 02, 2017, 10:07:20 PM
Vermin are kind of the personification of your grunts in a gang in some city, or people in team rocket. They try hard, but they're cowards and evil and, sometimes, not that strong.

It's also worth noting that by the end of the series, maybe the villains weren't necessarily getting weaker as much as the heroes got stronger?
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Ashleg on October 03, 2017, 12:48:18 AM
Heroes rarely seem to get stronger unless the point of said character's arc is (blank becomes a warrior). Usually the villains can be seen deteriorating by the end of the book, killing eachother and going insane with paranoia.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Captain Tammo on October 04, 2017, 12:14:29 AM
Fair point, fair point. I guess that's part of the villain's character arc, though.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Krantor the Brutal on October 05, 2017, 03:44:45 PM
Quote from: Ashleg on October 03, 2017, 12:48:18 AM
Heroes rarely seem to get stronger unless the point of said character's arc is (blank becomes a warrior). Usually the villains can be seen deteriorating by the end of the book, killing eachother and going insane with paranoia.

Does this mean Redwall has some kind of spell that attracts villains but also makes them insane?
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: The Skarzs on October 05, 2017, 05:40:20 PM
Ooh. Fascinating.
And also horrific.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Ashleg on October 05, 2017, 05:43:38 PM
Abbess Germaine did it...
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on October 06, 2017, 02:31:25 AM
I was going to say Abbess Geminaya. She was one strange old mouse.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Ashleg on October 06, 2017, 02:33:30 AM
Oh, was that her name?
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Krantor the Brutal on October 06, 2017, 02:34:14 AM
I was thinking it was Martin, after all, he is the one who haunts everybeast...
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Jetthebinturong on October 06, 2017, 02:53:01 AM
Quote from: Wylder Treejumper on October 06, 2017, 02:31:25 AM
I was going to say Abbess Geminaya. She was one strange old mouse.

Geminya was never an abbess. She was just Sister Geminya.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Ashleg on October 06, 2017, 04:00:46 AM
Who is the Abbess that founded Redwall?
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: The Skarzs on October 06, 2017, 04:11:00 AM
Germaine.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Ashleg on October 06, 2017, 04:17:57 AM
So I WAS right.
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Maudie on October 06, 2017, 05:37:44 AM
Quote from: Jetthebinturong on October 06, 2017, 02:53:01 AM
Quote from: Wylder Treejumper on October 06, 2017, 02:31:25 AM
I was going to say Abbess Geminaya. She was one strange old mouse.

Geminya was never an abbess. She was just Sister Geminya.

I'm not the only one who remembers things wrong!

*Victory dance.*

I would agree that Redwall has a certain appeal to villains. It's a big, strong fortress full of lots of good food and potential slaves. It's never really been successfully breached before and that also lends a glory to the capturing of it.

But then, most of that also applies to Salamandastron. But then Salamandastron is also inhabited by fighters, sooo...

Eh, I should cease my ramblings. ;D
Title: Re: Tougher Vermin?
Post by: Ashleg on October 06, 2017, 05:41:33 PM
Yeah, and when have we ever heard about Salamandastron food, eh?
Take Redwall. They've got the stuff.