Redwall Abbey

Brian Jacques' Works (Spoilers) => History, Legends and Myths => Topic started by: Ungatt Trunn on January 22, 2014, 11:36:05 PM

Title: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on January 22, 2014, 11:36:05 PM
This is a question that has been pestering me for a good long while now. If you have watched the Redwall TV series, Redwall Abbey doesn't look that large. here's an image of it as portrayed in the TV series:
(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/230/5/5/Inside_Redwall_by_GreenSkullplz.jpg)
According to this picture, Redwall is technically big; you know, bigger than any normal house or any several houses. But, if you look at it more closely, it really isn't too large. The lawn is pretty short in all directions; anybody could run from the Abbey to the wall at any direction in under 30 seconds. And the Abbey itself doesn't look that large; it looks like it could hold allot of creatures, but not as much as the creature count given in the Redwall series. So, you might say that this is just a "factually incorrect" drawing of Redwall Abbey, but in a way, its hard to imagine anything larger. Think about it; when you give full thought as to how Redwall Abbey looks like, it really doesn't seem that large. Though, there are a few passages in the books that evoke it being a great size; I've been re-reading Mariel Of Redwall, and there are several lines that say things like "They frolicked over the tree and flower dotted lawn towards the Abbey building", or "they raced across the lawn towards the Abbey building". Even though these don't necessarily exactly say that the Abbey is huge, it does mean that there would have to be room enough for them (whatever creatures you want to picture here) to race across the lawn and all things similar. The picture of Redwall Abbey above really doesn't look big enough to do these things.
Also, in the books, it says that there is a "large apple orchard", several fruit trees, flower beds, bushes, plants, and the Abbey pond. Also, if you've seen the "Graves" topic, they would have to bury there dead there. Tam suggested in that topic that the Redwallers had a certain section of the Abbey lawns were they buried all creatures from the Abbey who had died (if you have read the Redwall series, you may see that they had buried creatures there who were not originally from the Abbey). But to do this, Redwall Abbey would have to be REALLY large to do this, much larger than the picture shown above. But even if it was, say, two times bigger than the Abbey drawing above, it would still get quite crowded with all the graves. I read in a Fan Fiction once were it was suggested that they buried some of there creatures out in Mossflower woods near the Abbey. But that idea, though quite practical, is not a proven fact. Over the years (or seasons), there would have to be ALLOT graves dug. This proves a problem, no matter how large the Abbey is.
Sorry if I seam like I've gotten a little carried away with the whole grave thing, but I think that that is an important aspect of guessing the size of Redwall Abbey. They were bound to dig several graves within the Abbey walls, and over the years the amount of graves dug could really add up and really make it crowded in a rather unpleasant way.
Another subject to cover is the amount of creatures who would be staying at the Abbey. But I'd like to see some of yours guy's ideas on the subject before I dive in to the subject of the creature count of Redwall. What do you guys think?
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Blaggut on January 24, 2014, 12:27:23 AM
H,m. Interesting. Perhaps they just dug a deep pit? In the show, though I haven't read that book yet, Martins crush was buried outside of redwall abbey, at Mossflower. Maybe they even switched to cremating?
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on January 24, 2014, 01:55:12 AM
Quote from: Blaggut on January 24, 2014, 12:27:23 AM
H,m. Interesting. Perhaps they just dug a deep pit? In the show, though I haven't read that book yet, Martins crush was buried outside of redwall abbey, at Mossflower. Maybe they even switched to cremating?
Did they even have cement? I know Martin was cased in stone, but isn't that a little different?
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Blazemane on January 24, 2014, 05:17:53 AM
I'd have to look through the book again to be sure, but I seem to recall in A Redwall Winter's Tale that Christopher Denise's drawings of the Abbey give its walls a lot of different projections, so that it isn't one clean right angle like is shown in the t.v. series. If I didn't already know the series and just looked at those drawings instead, I could imagine that he was illustrating a sort of crammed city. But I might just be exaggerating my own initial impressions to myself. I'll have to check.

Whatever one artist's interpretation might have been, Jacques' descriptions of the building often seemed a bit minimalistic to me. He mentions Cavern Hole, Great Hall, the Kitchens, the Cellars, the Infirmary, the Dormitories, the Bell Tower, the Attic and... that's about it until you read about the stuff hidden underneath the Abbey. I mean, it looks like a long list, but not when the location is featured in 19 (?) of the books. And it's hard to gauge size, because he doesn't really try to describe that in explicit terms--I feel like he was more more focused on the purpose of these places. What does one do in the Kitchens? Why should the characters have their conversation there? And so on and so forth.

I do think it's got to be bigger than that picture from the t.v. show suggests, though. In the first book, when Matthias has to climb up to the attics using ledges above Great Hall, it's made out to be something of a quest. And when Jess climbs up to the weathervane to look for Martin's sword, it's mentioned that people start to have a hard time even seeing her. But I get the feeling from the windows in that picture from the t.v. show that the Abbey is about 4 stories (in mouse terms) tall before the bottom of the sloping roof.

What really gets me is this: when Matthias is making his way to the attic, at one point, he drops his dagger, and the story says "it was a considerable time before they [he and Warbeak] heard the faint clatter as it hit the Abbey floor."

So how long is a considerable time? Time definitely can stretch out in the imagination when one becomes deathly afraid of something. And at this point, Matthias is already above the stained glass windows... I think (he's above at least one of them). But if that puts him at the bottom of the roof, and that's only 4 stories, and it's supposed that a story here is about 10 feet high, it would only take (no, there's no way I remember physics equations off the top of my head, but having looked at them, the math seems to indicate...) about 2.85 seconds to hit the floor. If I'm more generous with the story height and say each story is 15 feet high, it'd take about 3.5 seconds to hit the floor. I mean... that's getting there. I'm still not sure it's quite at "considerable" yet, though.

Of course, that begs the question, "what is 'considerable'?" 4 seconds? 5? Even an increase from 3.5 seconds to 4 seconds would make the height of the Abbey at the very bottom of that roof about 78.5 feet tall. And an increase to 4.5 seconds would make the height almost 100 feet tall.

I can't make an actual, defend-able argument mixing math and word-interpretation like this. But to me it seems like the Abbey's got to be taller than what's shown on the show. And if taller, then arguably larger--maybe more complex, like Denise's illustrations. I could imagine the lawns and walls sort of growing in proportion with all of that.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Tam and Martin on January 24, 2014, 03:39:41 PM
I'll have to think on this....
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on January 24, 2014, 11:01:33 PM
Nice thought, Blazemane! Though, another thing that needs to be considered is how many creatures would be living at Redwall. According to several descriptions in the books, it seems like there would have to be quite a few.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Blazemane on January 25, 2014, 08:03:44 AM
Thanks!

Actually, though, last night I accidentally made those estimates by using gravity's acceleration in meters-per-second-squared, which would make the distances I came up with a matter of meters rather than feet. It would also make the times I came up with just plain wrong.

So I'll try this again. If the bottom of the roof of Great Hall is 40 feet tall, it wouldn't take 2.85 seconds for a knife to hit the ground--it would only take about 1.6! If the bottom of the roof was 60 feet tall, it would take the knife about 1.94 seconds to hit the ground.

And if the knife was falling for 4 seconds, the bottom of the roof would be 256 feet tall--not just 78.5 feet. If the knife fell for 4.5 seconds, the bottom of the roof would be 324 feet tall.

All of this would suggest even more so that, because there was a "considerable time" before Matthias and Warbeak heard the knife hit the ground, Redwall has got to be very tall. To me, heights like 256 feet and 324 feet seem way too tall; so unless the roof really is 256 feet tall, I'm thinking now that the knife would have had to take some time less than four seconds to hit the ground, just for the height of the Abbey to seem realistic.

Then again... the internet says that the Cathedral of Notre Dame is 295 feet tall and the Florence Cathedral is 376 feet tall (these numbers being from the tops of the roofs rather than than the bottoms, but still...) So if the builders of the Abbey were capable of that sort of thing (in "animal feet"), then I suppose it's possible.

So to sum up, if we can assume Brian Jacques was into being physically accurate about the speed of falling objects--and no, I don't think we can do that safely--then the argument is maybe less about "how big can the reader imagine it and still be accurate?" and more about "how small can the reader imagine it and still be accurate?"

Basically... I don't know. I feel like the Abbey and the lawns and the walls have to be pretty big, and then I always end up imagining them t.v. series scale when I'm reading. And then my mind tricks itself when the books focuses on a specific area like the orchard. For those moments, I imagine an expansive orchard without really caring about how the expansiveness could actually line up with my concept for the entire grounds.

Now that I've talked myself into all sorts of wishy-washiness...  

Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on January 24, 2014, 11:01:33 PMThough, another thing that needs to be considered is how many creatures would be living at Redwall. According to several descriptions in the books, it seems like there would have to be quite a few.

I'm honestly having a hard time thinking of a specific passage where Jacques addresses how many creatures live at the Abbey. Maybe there's some point when Matthias and co. are discussing battle strategies and thinking through how many rats Cluny has? Or maybe in that spot in Taggerung when Ruggan Bor comes to the Abbey, there's a moment where the two sides are compared?

But, yeah, I guess I've always figured there were quite a few, too. And if there are, then the Abbey can't be all that small.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: The Shade on January 25, 2014, 06:25:36 PM
An important thing to remember is the abbey is nearly entirely self substaining. They grow nearly all their food in the abbey grounds. That means a considerable amount of land for the orchards, gardens and even the pond (for the fish).
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on January 25, 2014, 06:29:54 PM
I wonder, how big do you think the Abbey pond was? In several books, it says that they would go fishing in canoes, which means it would have to be of some size.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: The Shade on January 25, 2014, 07:09:51 PM
Plus it could hold all the dibbun's little boat things, all of which had a sail.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Tam and Martin on January 25, 2014, 08:07:25 PM
I think it would be at least the size of a small, small lake. I mean, you hear about all the things that happen in the pond and then they tell about the fishes in the pond and such.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Captain Tammo on January 27, 2014, 02:19:26 AM
The "build your own redwall abbey" kit gives a much different perspective of scale and shape. It's significantly taller and I think is more true to the books, since Brian himself wrote a story to accompany that very set!

In one of the books (I think the bellmaker), the main characters come across some whales! They were described as being the size of the abbey by one. Assuming that these were blue whales, which is absolutely possible, seeing as they live in every area of the oceans (except the arctic regions). So a full grown blue whale can be about 100 feet long, and a mouse is only a couple of inches big, that is a HUGE size. You could easily fit 300 mice in redwall (I believe in the long patrol it mentions that there were 300 creatures living in the abbey at that time) with ample room to spare. And this may not be including the vertical part of the abbey, either!
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on January 27, 2014, 02:26:42 AM
Intresting thought, Tammo...So, it may be more about hight than wethe...
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: The Shade on January 27, 2014, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on June 11, 1970, 12:18:11 AM
In one of the books (I think the bellmaker), the main characters come across some whales! They were described as being the size of the abbey by one. Assuming that these were blue whales, which is absolutely possible, seeing as they live in every area of the oceans (except the arctic regions). So a full grown blue whale can be about 100 feet long, and a mouse is only a couple of inches big, that is a HUGE size. You could easily fit 300 mice in redwall (I believe in the long patrol it mentions that there were 300 creatures living in the abbey at that time) with ample room to spare. And this may not be including the vertical part of the abbey, either!
And also, the abbey could hold even more than that. I think in... Taggerung (?) the hares stay and eat, them being mentioned one hundred.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Tam and Martin on January 28, 2014, 02:07:47 AM
Quote from: The Shade on January 27, 2014, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on June 11, 1970, 12:18:11 AM
In one of the books (I think the bellmaker), the main characters come across some whales! They were described as being the size of the abbey by one. Assuming that these were blue whales, which is absolutely possible, seeing as they live in every area of the oceans (except the arctic regions). So a full grown blue whale can be about 100 feet long, and a mouse is only a couple of inches big, that is a HUGE size. You could easily fit 300 mice in redwall (I believe in the long patrol it mentions that there were 300 creatures living in the abbey at that time) with ample room to spare. And this may not be including the vertical part of the abbey, either!
And also, the abbey could hold even more than that. I think in... Taggerung (?) the hares stay and eat, them being mentioned one hundred.
That is true also. Maybe the actal building is tall.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Blazemane on January 28, 2014, 04:32:32 AM
Quote from: The Shade on January 27, 2014, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on June 11, 1970, 12:18:11 AM
In one of the books (I think the bellmaker), the main characters come across some whales! They were described as being the size of the abbey by one. Assuming that these were blue whales, which is absolutely possible, seeing as they live in every area of the oceans (except the arctic regions). So a full grown blue whale can be about 100 feet long, and a mouse is only a couple of inches big, that is a HUGE size. You could easily fit 300 mice in redwall (I believe in the long patrol it mentions that there were 300 creatures living in the abbey at that time) with ample room to spare. And this may not be including the vertical part of the abbey, either!
And also, the abbey could hold even more than that. I think in... Taggerung (?) the hares stay and eat, them being mentioned one hundred.

Oh, yeah! You're right! Russano the Wise is worried that the Abbey can't sustain his hares, but Abbess Mhera says she won't hear of them leaving, and that Redwall can more than accommodate them for as long as they want to stay.

What's crucial about this is that Russano's troop has 1,000 hares. 1,000!

QuoteThrough the massive dustcloud emerged a giant Badger Lord at the head of a thousand fighting hares.

Yes. Redwall must be very big.  
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: The Shade on January 28, 2014, 11:28:41 AM
Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was 100 or 1,000. Minor detail anyway.  ;D I mean, it's only ten times as much.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: 321tumbler on January 28, 2014, 02:07:01 PM
If Redwall wasn't massive, vermin wouldn't always attack it or think it holds some colossal treasure.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on January 28, 2014, 04:08:24 PM
Also remember that allot of the rooms, some of them pretty big, are situated underground. And if it was also tall, adding all the underground rooms to that, Redwall Abbey could have been huge.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Tam and Martin on January 28, 2014, 04:10:29 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on January 28, 2014, 04:08:24 PM
Also remember that allot of the rooms, some of them pretty big, are situated underground. And if it was also tall, adding all the underground rooms to that, Redwall Abbey could have been huge.
So, I think most of us agree it is Huge.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Blazemane on January 28, 2014, 04:57:48 PM
Quote from: The Shade on January 28, 2014, 11:28:41 AM
Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was 100 or 1,000. Minor detail anyway.  ;D I mean, it's only ten times as much.

Ah, sorry. My main point wasn't trying to correct you about something. I was glad you had brought the scene up.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: The Shade on January 28, 2014, 07:05:53 PM
Quote from: Blazemane on January 28, 2014, 04:57:48 PM
Quote from: The Shade on January 28, 2014, 11:28:41 AM
Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was 100 or 1,000. Minor detail anyway.  ;D I mean, it's only ten times as much.

Ah, sorry. My main point wasn't trying to correct you about something. I was glad you had brought the scene up.
Nah, don't worry, I was only joking around with that comment anyway.  ;) Anyway, back to the topic,
I think Redwall's wall perimeter was rather large too. Taking in mind they hosted races on it.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on January 28, 2014, 07:11:57 PM
...And my underground therium!
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: MatthiasMan on January 28, 2014, 10:53:37 PM
Okay, this is my belief. 

How small is a mouse? Pretty small.  Think of it as in the way the mouse would have to walk through all the corridors and hallways.  That, in my opinion is about the size of a large house.  Because, think, they have badgers living there, and badgers are WAY bigger than mice.  Then think of the size of the orchard and all the lawns.  A lot bigger than you would probably think, right?
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Tam and Martin on January 29, 2014, 02:05:20 AM
Well, then there is the animal comparison. We have to know how big the animals were before we kno how big Redwall was.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on January 29, 2014, 04:20:47 PM
Quote from: Tam and Martin on January 29, 2014, 02:05:20 AM
Well, then there is the animal comparison. We have to know how big the animals were before we kno how big Redwall was.
Correct. Remember that the Redwall universe is a completly different world. Things can be quite different there, such as the size ratio of the creatures.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: MeadowR on January 30, 2014, 11:02:49 AM
Well it's definitely larger (including the grounds) that the image shows. There are so many rooms and secret rooms, significantly enough sized gardens and all has to house quite a lot of critters. It gets quite confusing when you start to consider what the sizes of the animals would be in this world! If they're all smaller than humans than the abbey wouldn't be quite so huge to us. :)
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on January 31, 2014, 12:32:53 AM
But the human/creature ratio could be different in the Redwall Universe.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: MatthiasMan on January 31, 2014, 02:08:09 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on January 31, 2014, 12:32:53 AM
But the human/creature ratio could be different in the Redwall Universe.

But really, even if the mice were the size of your thumb, all the places that are in Redwall, all the rooms, all the secret places, it would still be pretty big.

If mice in Redwall were the size of my thumb, the tip at least is one inch, Redwall would probably be the size of 15' by 15' or something.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Vilu Daskar on February 09, 2014, 09:31:00 PM
It's smaller than a whale.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Tam and Martin on February 10, 2014, 02:48:42 AM
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on February 09, 2014, 09:31:00 PM
It's smaller than a whale.
Really? Oh yeah I remember now.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on February 11, 2014, 12:20:27 AM
Quote from: MatthiasMan on January 31, 2014, 02:08:09 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on January 31, 2014, 12:32:53 AM
But the human/creature ratio could be different in the Redwall Universe.

But really, even if the mice were the size of your thumb, all the places that are in Redwall, all the rooms, all the secret places, it would still be pretty big.

If mice in Redwall were the size of my thumb, the tip at least is one inch, Redwall would probably be the size of 15' by 15' or something.
But I'm assuming that there really isn't any way to compare the Redwall creatures to humans. It's a totally different universe: ratios should be completely different.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Captain Tammo on February 11, 2014, 10:39:10 PM
Quote from: MatthiasMan on January 31, 2014, 02:08:09 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on January 31, 2014, 12:32:53 AM
But the human/creature ratio could be different in the Redwall Universe.

But really, even if the mice were the size of your thumb, all the places that are in Redwall, all the rooms, all the secret places, it would still be pretty big.

If mice in Redwall were the size of my thumb, the tip at least is one inch, Redwall would probably be the size of 15' by 15' or something.

15 feet?! I don't think that's enough at all! I'm sticking with a whale... A BLUE WHALE! That's right... I said it.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on February 12, 2014, 03:55:09 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on February 11, 2014, 10:39:10 PM
Quote from: MatthiasMan on January 31, 2014, 02:08:09 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on January 31, 2014, 12:32:53 AM
But the human/creature ratio could be different in the Redwall Universe.

But really, even if the mice were the size of your thumb, all the places that are in Redwall, all the rooms, all the secret places, it would still be pretty big.

If mice in Redwall were the size of my thumb, the tip at least is one inch, Redwall would probably be the size of 15' by 15' or something.

15 feet?! I don't think that's enough at all! I'm sticking with a whale... A BLUE WHALE! That's right... I said it.
Are you saying that Redwall is possably the size of a Blue Whale?
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Vilu Daskar on February 12, 2014, 04:27:02 PM
In Pearls of Lutra Martin says something like this "I wonder what Old Roll would say if I told him that I saw a fish that was BIGGER than Redwall Abbey."
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Tam and Martin on February 12, 2014, 04:32:34 PM
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on February 12, 2014, 04:27:02 PM
In Pearls of Lutra Martin says something like this "I wonder what Old Roll would say if I told him that I saw a fish that was BIGGER than Redwall Abbey."
I do recall that. He said that the whale was maybe even bigger than Redwall.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Ungatt Trunn on February 12, 2014, 11:08:50 PM
Quote from: Tam and Martin on February 12, 2014, 04:32:34 PM
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on February 12, 2014, 04:27:02 PM
In Pearls of Lutra Martin says something like this "I wonder what Old Roll would say if I told him that I saw a fish that was BIGGER than Redwall Abbey."
I do recall that. He said that the whale was maybe even bigger than Redwall.
Probably was. A blue whale is bigger than any larger building in this world, so imagine what the size ratio would be like in that world!
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Vilu Daskar on February 13, 2014, 07:37:47 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on February 12, 2014, 11:08:50 PM
Quote from: Tam and Martin on February 12, 2014, 04:32:34 PM
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on February 12, 2014, 04:27:02 PM
In Pearls of Lutra Martin says something like this "I wonder what Old Roll would say if I told him that I saw a fish that was BIGGER than Redwall Abbey."
I do recall that. He said that the whale was maybe even bigger than Redwall.
Probably was. A blue whale is bigger than any larger building in this world, so imagine what the size ratio would be like in that world!
I don't think it was a blue whale
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Tam and Martin on February 14, 2014, 06:10:44 PM
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on February 13, 2014, 07:37:47 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on February 12, 2014, 11:08:50 PM
Quote from: Tam and Martin on February 12, 2014, 04:32:34 PM
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on February 12, 2014, 04:27:02 PM
In Pearls of Lutra Martin says something like this "I wonder what Old Roll would say if I told him that I saw a fish that was BIGGER than Redwall Abbey."
I do recall that. He said that the whale was maybe even bigger than Redwall.
Probably was. A blue whale is bigger than any larger building in this world, so imagine what the size ratio would be like in that world!
I don't think it was a blue whale
I don't remember but it was a whale atleast.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on February 15, 2014, 12:51:14 AM
I get the feeling the building itself was fairly large, with quite a bit underground. However, As it is, I am pretty sure the grounds were very large (remember the races?). The pond had big fish in it, and watershrimp, so it must be like a small lake. Also, they had a seemingly infinite food supply, which they had to grow somewhere. So I say that the grounds are probably very large indeed.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Tam and Martin on February 15, 2014, 01:01:56 AM
I have a question, Are we taking about Redwall the Abbey (Or Building) part of it or are we talking about all of it including the grounds?
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Captain Tammo on February 15, 2014, 01:55:58 PM
I'm thinking with the grounds lol
And I just said the blue whale part to be goofy  ;D
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Vilu Daskar on February 15, 2014, 08:52:19 PM
I think it's the whole thing.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Wylder Treejumper on February 15, 2014, 11:08:40 PM
Comparing the whale to the building and talking about the size of the whole thing, grounds included.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Vilu Daskar on February 16, 2014, 09:02:15 PM
The whole thing
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Tam and Martin on February 18, 2014, 02:44:04 PM
Okay.  ;)
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: UNKN0WN on April 13, 2014, 07:20:25 AM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on February 11, 2014, 10:39:10 PM
Quote from: MatthiasMan on January 31, 2014, 02:08:09 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on January 31, 2014, 12:32:53 AM
But the human/creature ratio could be different in the Redwall Universe.

But really, even if the mice were the size of your thumb, all the places that are in Redwall, all the rooms, all the secret places, it would still be pretty big.

If mice in Redwall were the size of my thumb, the tip at least is one inch, Redwall would probably be the size of 15' by 15' or something.

15 feet?! I don't think that's enough at all! I'm sticking with a whale... A BLUE WHALE! That's right... I said it.

15-25 feet (4.5-7.5 meters) does sound like a reasonable height.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Albrithr on June 08, 2014, 01:59:55 AM
I, for one, tend to like great hulking monoliths, so I will work as if the Redwallers are human-sized (plus, it makes the math easier).  In the illustrations, Redwall appears to be built in a semi-Gothic architecture style, somewhat like Notre Dame Cathedral.  These buildings, being religious buildings, were laid out in cross-shaped patterns, and tended to be excessively tall, with the intention of directing the viewers attention heavenward.  If Matthias' dagger fell for 4.5 seconds, assuming Redwall has the same gravity as Earth, that would imply that he was approximately 100 meters above the Great Hall's floor.  That is, if I did my math right, about 330 feet- barely taller than Big Ben.  And that is still beneath the upper attics.  Another clue as to the abbey's size is the fact that nobody ever knows what is in the attics!  The first thing I would do if I lived in a giant building is explore and, given the innate curiosity of many Redwallers, I think that many of them would be the same.  This means the building must be incredibly vast, as few (if any) of its inhabitants have ever explored the entire contents of it.  And that's not even taking into account the labyrinthine corridors of the cellar.  This building was obviously built with a lot of foresight, and with the idea that it would be far more densely inhabited than it ever was--at least in most of the books.  So let's just estimate, for the sake of argument, that Redwall was built to contain 1,000 inhabitants.  That, if nothing else, makes for a nice round number.  Abbess Germaine, in designing the Abbey, would have wanted all under her care to be well-fed, so a large portion of the grounds would have been dedicated to agriculture.  It currently, in the United States, takes around one acre to feed an individual for a year, but Redwallers do not have the fertilizers and insecticides that are common in the developed world today, which greatly increases the quantity of land needed.  However, they do not need pasture lands, so altogether there vegetable crops, orchards, vineyards, and any other food-producing land would take up, say, 2500 acres.  Their pond, since it does not supply a great amount of food and was only an incidental addition to the Abbey (according to the Long Patrol) was probably relatively small, 75-100 acres at the very most, and quite likely smaller than that.  My family owns a 3 acre pond, and it can be quite well stocked with fish at times.  However, it is not big enough to sail upon, which is one reason the Abbey pond would likely be much larger.  Add to that cemetery grounds, flower gardens, beehives, recreational areas, and probably several other outbuildings which were built and demolished over the years (and were never important enough to be mentioned in the books- sheds, basically), then the grounds could very easily be 4000 (or more!) acres.  This would come out to be 6.25 square miles (16.2 km squared), which means that the walls would be 2.5mi x 2.5 mi (4km x 4km) if the Abbey were perfectly square. 
Which serves to make that walltop race more impressive  :)
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Captain Tammo on June 18, 2014, 04:45:24 AM
While I commend you on your research and math, I think that that's simply far too big for what Brian had planned. Though who am I to tell you how you can and can't think of Redwall?! I loved the point you made about how creatures hadn't even explored the upper attics. And it's true, but I believe that that is the case because it was structurally unsound. I know it sounds weird. Redwall structurally unsound? Well in later books (I believe it's Mattimeo whilst fighting Ironbeak) a party climbs the upper floors and even though the outside is very much stable, the inside nearly crumbles. From what I understand an entire staircase collapses! So perhaps that's why nobeast had ventured up there? Who needs those kinds of safety hazards when all they need is in the immediate abbey? Also, if you break your leg, assuming this is medieval medical techniques, that's going to take a much longer time to heal than in today's world, so why risk it?

Again, great point Albrithr! And welcome to the forum! :)
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: SilentSam on November 12, 2014, 09:56:27 PM
Hmm.. maybe as big as a real castle..
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: LT Sandpaw on November 13, 2014, 12:11:38 AM
As big as Redwall sounds it really can't be all that large.
1#First fact that says this is the wall top race, if the abbey was that massive the race would be a long one not something you could sprint.
2# During the book Redwall it said Matthias went into a cavern that could hold the entire of Redwall comfortably... if Redwall was that massive that cave would be the size of well... just really really big.
3# Also several times during the series squirrels climb to the top of the building itself, that would be one heck of a climb up sheer surfaces even for a squirrel.

That said we do know that in the Redwall universe the creatures are around the size of humans, we know this because they can eat certain fruit that would be much to large normally AKA apples. that means we get the Narnia affect (Mice are bigger badgers are smaller etc.)

Now we get to the part about being self sustaining. this is harder to understand but all I can think of is that Redwall is very lucky come harvest time.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Mhera on December 29, 2014, 04:57:44 PM
Concerning the 1000 hares in Taggerung, didn't Russano send half of them with Ruggan Bor as an escort? That would mean the abbey would only have to feed and house 500 hares. With that said, the abbess did say that Redwall could sustain ALL of his hares for a long time. With regards to food, that would mean an insane amount of vittles to needed to be available no matter the number (these are hares we're talking about!).

Also, the walls where probably not 2.5 miles each. That would make the wall races 10 miles, and I don't care how fast Fwirl is it would take way more than just a few minutes to run that. Also remember that there was a race on the ground that the dibbuns could take part in that was the same distance as the elders' race. That means that it was a distance that most toddlers could cover (if they stayed on course, that is!), so certainly far less than 10 miles.  Also, the Skipper in Triss ran three laps of the walls every morning before breakfast, besides other exercises. This would put his daily mileage at 30, or roughly 10-20 more than a professional human distance runner puts in on a daily basis.

I agree with the posters who said that scale between beasts in Redwall is weird; again referring to Taggerung, when Deyna holds Martin's sword it's described as being only a little small. If scale was the same as it was in real life, a mouse's sword held by a very big otter would look more like a needle in said otter's paw than a large knife. Badgers could still be massive, though, as Mhera didn't even come up to Russano's waist when they were both standing.

I've never really given much thought to Redwall's size before, it's always shrunken or expanded in my imagination based on the context in the story. It's an interesting topic to consider.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Hickory on December 29, 2014, 05:15:17 PM
Interesting point!

hmmmm.

well, the abbey itself is incredibly large, having multiple time housed the abbey-dwellers from outside vermin. the books never seemed to put an estimate to the number of creatures in the abbey, but to include Mhera's point they did feed and house 500 hares for a few days, easily.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Captain Tammo on December 31, 2014, 05:24:42 AM
Another thing to keep in mind is that there are several scenes throughout the series where creatures venture beyond the walls to forage for food. So we can safely assume that while a great deal of the abbey's nutrition comes from its orchard and gardens, it did not provide all of it. This could also help explain why so many creatures could stay at the abbey at once.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Mhera on December 31, 2014, 04:31:12 PM
I always thought that when abbeydwellers left to forage outside it was for either medicinal herbs for the infirmary (I think that's what Tansy was doing at the beginning of Pearls of Lutra?) or as an excuse for an outing (like in the beginning of Triss), not out of necessity. I could be forgetting something though.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Hickory on December 31, 2014, 05:26:11 PM
Well, not that redwallers are religious, but many nuns who live in a monastary seldom left (not that I am a guru on the subject). redwall is supposed to be prosperous, that is why vermin constantly hear about and want the abbey. If they didn't live up to that, wel, theywould be the opposite of the current condition. And, think o the amount of cellarspace for the food! they could probably be used as rooms, since Abbot Humble and Lonna Bowstripe both used a cellar room as a place to rest.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: LT Sandpaw on December 31, 2014, 05:54:42 PM

Another point is the wall height, its mentioned that the walls are massively tall, this is also supported by the fact that a ship could roll on though the gates easily. Including the massive height of the walls the building itself which is much taller then the walls would be a mighty height, I have heard tell of walls being 80 feet tall with 40 foot gates, That's a big wall, however I can not see Redwall's walls being that massive. I think they would be more around forty foot walls with maybe 10 foot gates.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Albrithr on January 05, 2015, 05:53:08 AM
Looking back on my original estimates, those probably were far too large. However, the only farming space mentioned is inside the walls, which makes sense since it is a place of refuge. Really, depends upon the size of the beasts of Mossflower. In real life, there is no way that a mouse could be even comparable in size to a beast that is able to wear a wolf's skull as headgear, so there is no constant ratio there. And, quite likely, the Redwallers are smaller than humans, because it is often mentioned that the trees of the forest hang over the Abbey walltops. There are few trees that grow more than forty feet.  However, due to scale differences, trees in Mossflower could also grow taller. 
If they are human-sized, then that is one big whale, even if my initial numbers were completely wrong.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Hickory on March 02, 2015, 09:07:15 PM
Quote from: Albrithr on January 05, 2015, 05:53:08 AM
Looking back on my original estimates, those probably were far too large. However, the only farming space mentioned is inside the walls, which makes sense since it is a place of refuge. Really, depends upon the size of the beasts of Mossflower. In real life, there is no way that a mouse could be even comparable in size to a beast that is able to wear a wolf's skull as headgear, so there is no constant ratio there. And, quite likely, the Redwallers are smaller than humans, because it is often mentioned that the trees of the forest hang over the Abbey walltops. There are few trees that grow more than forty feet.  However, due to scale differences, trees in Mossflower could also grow taller. 
If they are human-sized, then that is one big whale, even if my initial numbers were completely wrong.

In the original book, they said that many farmers lived outside the wall, in the country side. These farmers, Ibelieve, supplied food to the Abbey. I think.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Luftwaffles on March 05, 2015, 12:37:30 AM
Can we really get to a definitive answer? To me it seems like it changed several times to serve the plot (in the TV series, of course). It is a REALLY interesting topic, but some of the episodes certainly gave me the impression that the Abbey wouldn't remain still in terms of size (the front yard seemed gigantic at the beginning of Season 2, when Slegar made his appearance, but wasn't like that on Season 1, when Matthias could it run it VERY fast).

My two rusty cents on this.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: rrrrr on April 20, 2015, 04:54:55 AM
I didn't watch the TV show, but I read the books.

Jess had to climb for a long time (estimate 30 seconds plus)

But since squirrels can scale a normal tree (around 10 feet tall) in around 2 seconds, that would make Redwall's height very tall (around 150 feet).
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Groddil on November 02, 2015, 09:16:35 PM
What if we assume that they Abbey pond is actually the lake that Kotir sunk into. It's the only body of water around (besides the river), and it's big enough to hold large fish. If you go on that scale, the abbey would be pretty massive.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Vilu Daskar on November 02, 2015, 09:19:48 PM
The pond isn't what Kotir sank into, the moles diverted the river with tunnels a flooded Kotir if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Hickory on November 03, 2015, 12:59:10 AM
Quote from: Groddil on November 02, 2015, 09:16:35 PM
What if we assume that they Abbey pond is actually the lake that Kotir sunk into. It's the only body of water around (besides the river), and it's big enough to hold large fish. If you go on that scale, the abbey would be pretty massive.
I believe the pond is explained in Long Patrol.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Lady Ashenwyte on November 03, 2015, 09:56:33 AM
Quote from: Sagetip, the hare on November 03, 2015, 12:59:10 AM
Quote from: Groddil on November 02, 2015, 09:16:35 PM
What if we assume that they Abbey pond is actually the lake that Kotir sunk into. It's the only body of water around (besides the river), and it's big enough to hold large fish. If you go on that scale, the abbey would be pretty massive.
I believe the pond is explained in Long Patrol.

It is.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: asmodeus on October 06, 2017, 11:53:33 PM
I am trying to build the abbey in Minecraft and realized how fast food grows in the game. Could that apply to the real redwall too. Could the vegetables be bigger? This would considerably reduce the land needed to feed the Abbey. Also, the Cellars hold large amounts of preserved goods, making it THEORETICALLY possible to house 1000 Long Patrol hares for a little while.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Jukka the Sling on October 07, 2017, 03:07:31 PM
Hmm.  I feel pretty certain that all of the food they grow in Redwall is sized about the same as it would be for us.  Apples and things like that are eaten easily, and they aren't mentioned as being huge or anything.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Ashleg on October 07, 2017, 03:56:51 PM
The only foods mentioned as being huge are circles of cheese and sometimes cakes, both of which they make to be huge.
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Hazelrah42 on August 26, 2018, 08:25:32 PM
Hey everyone! Just got into the thread.

I think I finally calculated the size of Redwall. I will add a disclaimer stating that my dimensions however are based on making the animal sizes more comparable to ours. I can explain later, as that's not the point of the post. In Triss in the beginning of Chapter 34 Brian Jacques says that there were only needed a total of 40 guards on the wall, or 10 for each wall. At the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier a sentry paces 21 steps in each direction. A step is 2.2 feet or 46 feet or 15-16 yards. This means that the walls could be anywhere from 150-160 yards long each side for a total of 600 to 640 yards long (15 or 16 x 10 guards). This means that at a minimum the total are within the walls ONLY 5-6 acres but that's at a bare minimum and would only cover the grounds. I ssimate that ideally, Redwall Abbey would be only about 10 acres in size or 4 hectares for you chaps over seas.

Next Analysis: The Walls
For an analysis of the wall height and thickness, a good comparison aftually would be he Vatican, as it's a church surrounded by fortress like walls. The walls around the Vatican are 50-60 meters and 40-50 meters thick, that would make them pretty solid and impressive walls to any potential conqueror but also give huge advantage to the defender.

Next Analysis: Food Acquisition
The bulk of the Abbey's food comes from is the Flat Lands to the north, as a 5 foot tall Squirrel who is bigger but has a scaled up metabolism would still require roughly 400 pounds of food per year. My wife made an interesting point though. Those living in Mossflower probably pay a willing tribute to Redwall Abbey in the form of food, similar to the Tudor Monestary Farms. Redwall wouldn't own any property except what was within its walls, the surrounding creatures would in effect pay for the security of those walls. The Abbey would in effect, act like Japanese castles, where the peasants who helped build them could use them for security and safety. The key to thr Flat Lands being used so heavily however is the production of flower. As their use of science is only at a medieval level, the maximum they could expect would be 1 bushel of wheat per acre. This equals 60 pounds of flour or 5 12 ounce loaves of bread. Somethjng like Bernard Bread might use as much as 4 bushels depending on its size!
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Captain Tammo on August 30, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
Quote from: Hazelrah42 on August 26, 2018, 08:25:32 PM
Hey everyone! Just got into the thread.

....A step is 2.2 feet or 46 feet or 15-16 yards. This means that the walls could be anywhere from 150-160 yards long each side for a total of 600 to 640 yards long (15 or 16 x 10 guards)....

Next Analysis: The Walls
...The walls around the Vatican are 50-60 meters and 40-50 meters thick...

I think you might have mixed up some units and numbers when you were converting! 150-160 yards per wall converts to 450-480 feet. If that was made into a square, you still get the 5-6 acres you talked about!

It's funny you mention the Vatican. By sheer coincidence I was there this past summer for a visit! I think you may have had a typo on the units there, though. 40 meters is 130+ feet! The outer walls I saw looked to be in the range of 40ish feet. I did find a few other numbers tossed around when I did a quick google search, but nothing on the magnitude of that many meters!

I did really like what you mentioned about woodland creatures paying tribute to the abbey. I don't recall it ever being mentioned in the stories, but I suppose it's not far-fetched to imagine - and a pretty creative idea, too!
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Hazelrah42 on August 31, 2018, 08:00:35 PM
Hey thanks! Haha sorry for the typos, I was just so excited I had to write everything down and didn't really pay attention to cohesiveness :P
Title: Re: How big is Redwall?
Post by: Hazelrah42 on August 31, 2018, 08:01:45 PM
Regarding the tribute to the Abbey, didn't Brian Jacques often say that Redwall was only as strong as it's friends and allies? Also yeah, 40 meters would be a bit thick, I think I meant 40 feet, which would still be thick, but nothing too astronomical.