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Author Topic: Hellgates and Dark Forest  (Read 565 times)

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Belffelyne Hare

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Hellgates and Dark Forest
« on: July 25, 2015, 09:06:26 PM »

A most peculiar thing has caught m'lapine eye: it occurs in the song "Wurpldown Dumm" in Outcast of Redwall, and is the method in which Dark Forest is portrayed.
In the song, the "Lord of Dark Forest" carries poor Wurpldown Dumm off to Dark Forest. When they arrive in Dark Forest, it is shown to be inhabited by vermin souls! Sounds like Hellgates, doesn't it?

Or is Hellgates just another, more unsavory name for Dark Forest? I'm inclined to flippin' well believe it is, because the next thing you know, woodlanders are mentioned as going to Hellgates!
Brigadier Buckworthy Crumshaw suggests that his hares (woodlanders!) are going "to Hellgates" if they fail/die in battle. Why would he say that? Don't woodlanders go to Dark Forest? Apparently the two places are one and the same. Hellgates and Dark Forest are just...bloomin' diff'rent names for th' place. Thoughts?

"[...]One day as ole Wurpldown Dumm lied asleep,
Ee Lord o' Dark Forest came wi' a gurt leap,
An' carried 'im off furrever to keep,
Ole Wurpldown in ee Dark Wuddland.
An' all ee dead vermints cried, 'Come an' see, mates,
O boggle us seasons, an' lackaday fates,
Yon fat mole ee's eatin' gurt Dark Forest gates,
O get 'im back up to ee wuddlands.'" - (part of "Wurlpdown Dumm")

"To Hellgates or to glory, away we march in style;
Each warrior hare, without a care, we'll see ye in awhile!" - (part of "Crumshaw's Song")
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 09:14:38 PM by Belffelyne Hare »
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Gonff the Mousethief

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Re: Hellgates and Dark Forest
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2015, 05:01:48 AM »

This is a really good find. I think that the song was more of a joke really making it seem as this humble mole gets swepted away to see Vermin. As for the Hares, it's seems like just a says big that they would do anything to win the war.
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Belffelyne Hare

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Re: Hellgates and Dark Forest
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2015, 08:07:40 PM »

That's def'nitely true on th' song being a joke. What gave the singer, Uncle Blunn, the idea that vermin live in Dark Forest, wot? Does seem a little odd.

Aye, I agree there. It always seemed so ambiguous in the books, y'know. One group'd say Vulpuz rules 'Ellgates, then another says that once a beast got to 'Ellgates, 'e'd tell "the Devil" who sent 'im. Others muttered about badgers standing guard and a "Lord o' Dark Forest". Then there's this:

"The drums began to beat. Gormad Tunn, Firstblade of all Rapscallions, was dying.
The drums beat louder, making the very air thrum to their deep, insistent throbbing. Damug Warfang watched the sea, pounding, hissing among the pebbles as it clawed its way up the shore. Soon, Gormad Tunn's spirit would be at the gates of Dark Forest.
Only a Greatrat could become Firstblade of all Rapscallions. Damug cast a sideways glance at Byral, standing further along the beach, and smiled thinly.
Gormad would have company at Dark Forest gates before the sun set." -- The Long Patrol, Page 10

"An old ferret who had been attending Gormad left the death tent. He threw up his paws and howled in a high keening tone:

Gormad has left us for Dark Forest's shade
And the wind cannot lead Rapscallions
Let the beast stand forth who would be Firstblade
To rule all these wild Battalions!" -- The Long Patrol, Page 11
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Lord_Ashenwyte

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Re: Hellgates and Dark Forest
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2015, 07:32:45 AM »

I'd have to imagine Dark Forest is full of those hordebeasts who were forefully recruited and killed by the masses.
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Izeroth

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Re: Hellgates and Dark Forest
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2015, 01:50:39 AM »

 I imagine the Dark Forest as a sort of universal afterlife that doesn't discriminate based on good and evil. I think Hellgates is, essentially, one of many different names describing the same place.
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Stellamara

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Re: Hellgates and Dark Forest
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2015, 08:52:43 PM »

I'm in the middle of re-reading Mossflower right now, and when Lady Amber's archers came across Fortunata, Lady Amber distinctly said she was sending her to "the dark forest." In The Bellmaker, I vaguely remember Abbot Saxtus saying a few words for Mellus, and it was something along the lines of peaceful fields and easy rest. Has this "good" afterlife ever been named in the books?
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Lord_Ashenwyte

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Re: Hellgates and Dark Forest
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2015, 01:58:49 AM »

I'm in the middle of re-reading Mossflower right now, and when Lady Amber's archers came across Fortunata, Lady Amber distinctly said she was sending her to "the dark forest." In The Bellmaker, I vaguely remember Abbot Saxtus saying a few words for Mellus, and it was something along the lines of peaceful fields and easy rest. Has this "good" afterlife ever been named in the books?

The "good" afterlife is supposed to be Dark Forest. The "bad" one is supposed to be Hellgates.
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Hickory

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Re: Hellgates and Dark Forest
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2015, 04:29:32 PM »

It's distinctly possible that different organizations and areas had different ideas of the afterlife. Loamhedge, for example, uses the phrase "sunny fields and quiet streams" (or something along those lines) on the gravestones. Braggon and Sarobando, I believe, never use any terms for afterlife, vermin or otherwise, suggesting that, since they weren't properly brought up, they weren't taught to se certain phrases. Just a thought.
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Lord_Ashenwyte

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Re: Hellgates and Dark Forest
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2015, 03:42:39 AM »

It's distinctly possible that different organizations and areas had different ideas of the afterlife. Loamhedge, for example, uses the phrase "sunny fields and quiet streams" (or something along those lines) on the gravestones. Braggon and Sarobando, I believe, never use any terms for afterlife, vermin or otherwise, suggesting that, since they weren't properly brought up, they weren't taught to se certain phrases. Just a thought.

That seems more realistic.
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The fastest way to a man's heart- Or anyone's, in fact- Is to tear a hole through their chest. - Rusvul

Indeed. You are as ancient as the soot that choked Pompeii into oblivion, though not quite as uncaring. - Rusvul

Do not go gentle into that good night, but rage, rage against the dying light.
 
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