Redwall's "Gray" Characters

[Lutra]

Didn't see a topic like this around, so I figured I'd bring it up.  I haven't read every Redwall book, so excuse me if I miss something or overlook some character in this.  Basically, Brian Jacques does not dapple in "gray" characters in Redwall--its very black and white, good-evil, and its predetermined by your species.  There are no evil mice and likewise there are no good foxes.  However, there are at least three characters that break this predetermined mold when you read a Redwall book:

Gingivere, from Mossflower
Veil, from Outcast of Redwall
Taggerrung, from Taggerrung

Let's start with Gingivere--he's a wildcat, and if you look at the family, his father and sister, well, Gingivere ought to be just like them.  He isn't.  He's very different from them, considered weak by both.  What makes this character particularly unusual in Redwall (and this could be because this was the second book written and there was no knowing at the time how big this franchise would be) is that Gingivere does not get killed because he's different, and actually survives to the end and doesn't have a change of heart.  Why weren't there more Gingivere's in the series that certainly provided more depth and curiosity as you never quite knew if he was going to always be this way, have a change of thought or what have you?  Missed opportunity in my opinion, but Mr. Jacques gave us at least two other characters that didn't subscribe to the good/evil species mold.

Next we have Veil, the ferret babe found and raised in Redwall.  Veil certainly gets the most attention of the three on the forums, because you're left to question what Mr. Jacques was really after with him.  A shadow of a good character in a ferret body?  Based on the events of the story, Veil is definitely no "goody-two-shoes" and as such he doesn't fit the perfection sought from Redwall characters.  Yet, in the same sense, he's not a truly evil character when you compare him to his father.  Veil had opportunities to kill Bryony--the one who always stuck up for him--you think if he was truly evil, he would've been rather annoyed with her stepping in all the time and done away with her.  Yet he saves her at the end from a certain death, losing his own life in the process.  The reason Veil gets more discussion time than say, Constance, is because he was interesting, and like Gingivere, you didn't always know what was going to happen.  You didn't have the sense of predictability, and that's what made Outcast one of my favorites in the entire series.

Finally, the last character I'm aware of that fits this gray mold is Taggerrung, the otter.  Here you have role reversal from Outcast...what if the baddies raise a goodie?  Will that character be inherently evil as their raising suggests?  For a while Mr. Jacques had me really interested because the early part of the story concludes that perhaps, just perhaps, Tagg could be a rogue otter in the series.  Of course, once Tagg finds out he's truly Deyna and his whole backstory of how the clan killed his father, well, then Tagg takes his rightful side on the goodies, and the story continues largely as if Tagg was always on the side of Redwall abbey and was never raised by vermin.  While I knew that was probably going to happen, given the character's backstory, I wish Mr. Jacques had contemplated what it might've been with an otter on the other side of the line.


So there you have it...at least three characters that didn't follow the typical good-bad speciesism of Redwall.  What are your thoughts on the matter?  Should Jacques have considered more stories like Outcast to make the later stories less predictable?  I'm interested in hearing what you guys feel about this.

[Captain Tammo]

 Voles are kind of gray creatures all around. Like in Rakkety Tam, yoofus lightpaw. If I had the books with me, I'd give more examples but I don't
I wish Brian had some characters that were a good species, but bad guys. I know theres a few, but those ones are usually either voles, or desperate. What would happen if a mouse was truly a bad guy? I think it'd make things less predictable in the books

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

First off, Redwall Wiki's list of grey characters: http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Grey_characters
The Redwall Wiki's definiton of a grey character is pretty much this: A character that goes against the common mold of their species. Everyone agrees I'd assume
Gingivere Greeneyes is indeed of that category.
Veil is debatable, and the only real gray character in the saga
[[Okay, my views might sound narrow minded, but hang on here and don't reply unless you read everything here. I just see this as being obvious-ish]]
Deyna Tagg isn't gray, as you seemed to point out. He's an otter and goodbeast.

According to Brian Jacques: (all Ask Brian Volume 1)

24. Why do you make mice, squirrels, otters and badgers "good" and foxes, rats, ferrets and such "bad"? How do you decide which are good and which are bad? (Donna Wilson, Seattle, Washington)

The bad creatures are those which are traditionally bad in European folk lore and have come to be regarded as sly or mean or evil.The good creatures are mostly small and defenceless, with the exception of the badgers.

42. Will you ever have any really good vermin or bad woodlanders in any of your stories? (Peter Johnson, Pennsylvania)

No! The goodies are good and the baddies are BAD, no grey areas.

With that last line, I don't see (outside of Veil(quote from BJ coming)) how there is any grey characters. Many exist outside of their species' characteristics, but they aren't both good or bad.
Example: Look at Gingivere in Mossflower. Goodbeast, yes. Respected his father, accused in sense of justice his sister, aided the Corim, and helped overthrow Kotir, and sheltered many woodlanders with his mate Sandingomm in their new farmhouse. He wasn't "grey" as BJ defined the word. Against his species alignment, and thus considered grey, or gray (they're the same word).

Okay, if anyone wants to find where Brian Jacques commented on Veil, and him purposefully not disclosing the true identity of good/evil in his heart, that'd be wonderful -I can't find the quote.
But I've seen it afore, for the record.

@Tammo: On voles, yes, they tend to be quite gray. Most of them were in desperate situations true enough, but reasons don't justify excuses.
And Brian said that wouldn't be Redwall to create such a species, btw.

I think I might well regret this, going into another one of these "discussions".

[James Gryphon]

About Gingivere, an important thing to remember is that at the time Mossflower was written, there had been only one other cat in the series, who was a good character. So with Squire Julian, his ancestor Gingivere, Lord Verdauga, and Tsarmina, you techncially have an even ratio, two good, two bad, for a balanced species. If you add Sandingomm into the mix good cats actually slightly outnumber bad ones. So while wildcats have become known as an evil species, mostly due to Tsarmina and later Ungatt Trunn's influence, if you look at the numbers, the scales looked a lot more balanced around the time Mossflower was written, and one could actually make an argument that cats, as a group, were a good species.

Another thing is that Gingivere (and Tsarmina) are both akin to halves of their father -- Tsarmina possessing all of her father's ruthless traits (whether they were latent or visible), and Gingivere all of his good traits -- like the sense of justice and fairness, and the same sort of affection for his family, judging by how Verdauga tries to positively encourage his son to resist his overbearing sister. It's telling that when Verdauga delivers his judgement, to imprison Martin for a short time for carrying a weapon into Mossflower, that it's a balance between two extremes: It isn't nearly as harsh as Tsarmina's order, which was immediate execution, but it's also more strict that Gingivere's, which was to let him get off completely free.

We all know that Gingivere is good, and that Tsarmina is evil. Intuitively, though, if that's the case, then Verdauga could almost be viewed as gray, in the literal sense -- not especially good or evil.

The fact that Verdauga is alluded to and directly shown to have good traits (that his son apparently inherited and predominantly shows) is something of an anomaly among villains, especially a leader of his stature.

42. Will you ever have any really good vermin or bad woodlanders in any of your stories? (Peter Johnson, Pennsylvania)

No! The goodies are good and the baddies are BAD, no grey areas.

To risk focusing on a technicality, I might point out that the question is future-tense, asking Brian Jacques about characters that might show up in the future... it doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility that there might have been gray characters in the past.

That said, I do agree that most every character, with the obvious exception of Veil, can be easily scooped into one category or the other, at any single time.

I might say, though, that just because someone is entirely good at a given point in time doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility that they might have been evil earlier -- while it is true that Graylunk was good at the end of his life, the last thing we see him do before that was murder his co-conspirator for the Pearls of Lutra, and before that, participate in the massacre of the entire holt of Lutra. Somehow I get the feeling that if Grath Longfletch was there after Graylunk was permanently injured, and no longer classifiable as "evil", that she wouldn't care too much about his repentance.

Likewise, while I think everyone would agree that Romsca is good by the end of her life, as far as we know, she was also present at the massacre of Holt Lutra, and participated in many other raids during her corsair career. She was a tough enough and competent enough corsair to rise to the top, and was picked out by Mad Eyes, by name, as the new commander of Waveworm. When questioned about her criminal past, she said she "likes being a corsair," and that she wasn't ashamed of her life, which very probably included some pretty bad deeds.

So while I'd say that none of the creatures are ever good and bad simultaneously, that their alignments seem to be open to shift during life, which could be considered a type of grayness.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

42. Will you ever have any really good vermin or bad woodlanders in any of your stories? (Peter Johnson, Pennsylvania)

No! The goodies are good and the baddies are BAD, no grey areas.

To risk focusing on a technicality, I might point out that the question is future-tense, asking Brian Jacques about characters that might show up in the future... it doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility that there might have been gray characters in the past.

With Verdauga's traits being split between his offsrping you make a fair point, of which I would agree. Very interesting, thank you for saying it!

However, I would not argue him being split as good and evil. For one, Riggu Felis (though very cruel and plotting about it) did the same thing with his sons as Verdauga did with Gingivere.

And with the technicality, I'd say it bears no actual relevancy, as things didn't change with gray characters throughout the series. They appear in similar numbers, ratio (pretty much), and the like.
And also, the question was future-tense, but it also implies that none have so far appeared.

[Lily]

Okay, if anyone wants to find where Brian Jacques commented on Veil, and him purposefully not disclosing the true identity of good/evil in his heart, that'd be wonderful -I can't find the quote.
But I've seen it afore, for the record.

I believe you're thinking of this question:

55. Were did you get the idea for the Wraith in The Outcast of Redwall, and did you see Veil as a good guy in the end? (Peter Verdin, Sioux Falls, South Dakota)

The wraith was another invention (it suited my mood for that part of the story). As to Veil and his final motives, I deliberately left that for the reader to decide. I have had many opinions and the jury is still out.

I think Verdauga is still on the evil side of grey. I agree that he shows a lot more good points than most villains, but when Mossflower begins we see that most of the woodlanders have fled their homes to escape his severe tolls and vermin patrols. He forced them to give up their food and to work in his fields. He was a fairer leader than Tsarmina, but he was still evil.

I do like Verdauga as a character. As James said, he is an anomaly among the villains. While most Redwall villains seem to go around killing their own soldiers and ruling by fear, he seems to rule more by respect. I'm sure there's still a great deal of fear there, though!

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

I believe you're thinking of this question:

55. Were did you get the idea for the Wraith in The Outcast of Redwall, and did you see Veil as a good guy in the end? (Peter Verdin, Sioux Falls, South Dakota)

The wraith was another invention (it suited my mood for that part of the story). As to Veil and his final motives, I deliberately left that for the reader to decide. I have had many opinions and the jury is still out.

I think Verdauga is still on the evil side of grey. I agree that he shows a lot more good points than most villains, but when Mossflower begins we see that most of the woodlanders have fled their homes to escape his severe tolls and vermin patrols. He forced them to give up their food and to work in his fields. He was a fairer leader than Tsarmina, but he was still evil.

I do like Verdauga as a character. As James said, he is an anomaly among the villains. While most Redwall villains seem to go around killing their own soldiers and ruling by fear, he seems to rule more by respect. I'm sure there's still a great deal of fear there, though!

Thank you for providing that, I jumped right over it after reading about the Wraith.

And good points on Verdauga.
Tsarmina at the time had actually begun some decent amount of control, though Verdauga was undoubtedly still behind the woodlanders' plight.
I think that anomaly as James Gryphon called it is why so many, at least me, like him. He seems like a highly respected leader, and a conqueror who provided for his soldiers, to the point where he couldn't and drove off all the woodlanders to go and survive elsewhere. No doubt his vermin patrols were heavily behind that, as you said.

[Matthias720]

Let's not forget about other species. Captain Snow hunted both mice and shrews, but gave all that up after Matthias killed Asmodeus. Although this could be construed as a kind of "Heel Face Turn" moment.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

Lizards and eagles and some other birds are split to this day in an even ratio.
My personal guess is that certain species of lizards are villains, while others are goodbeasts.

[Lutra]

^ If we're going to consider a split among some species as some good, some bad, depending on the situation and story, where does that leave Mr. Jacques' comment that the goodies are good, and the baddies are bad?  Apparently there are some species that don't follow that rule!

Let's not forget about other species. Captain Snow hunted both mice and shrews, but gave all that up after Matthias killed Asmodeus. Although this could be construed as a kind of "Heel Face Turn" moment.

Owls aren't really represented in Redwall and the two examples we have--Snow and Sir Harry, these are good owls (Snow after the deal), so does this imply the owls are always on the good side too?  You would have to say given the examples, owls are part of the good side and don't munch on mice. :p

This wasn't an easy question to discuss because there's many ways of focusing on who represents which piece of the puzzle.  I agree with a lot I am reading.  I can see the point that Verdauga might be the better representation of a gray character than Gingivere because he would listen and choose fates between the extreme suggestions by his son and daughter.  Its been a while since I've actually read Mossflower, so I only recalled bits a pieces of the whole thing.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

^ If we're going to consider a split among some species as some good, some bad, depending on the situation and story, where does that leave Mr. Jacques' comment that the goodies are good, and the baddies are bad?  Apparently there are some species that don't follow that rule!

If you're referring to my comment on lizards and eagles, you did not understand it. I was merely stating that half of the appearances of that species were gray, as in against their alignment. Or that certain sub-species were goodies, and others of the same species, through a different type, are baddies. Or maybe there's just a lot of gray characters amongst them.

Gingivere Greeneyes is clearly a gray character. Wildcats are a bad species, they fit the criteria Brian Jacques said as what he tends to use as a decision between what species are good and what are bad. He said that it's mostly those that cannot defend themselves or are not hunters in nature that are goodies.
Gingivere was clearly not a villain.

Verdaugua doesn't strike me as gray. The good virtues in him are similar to Plugg Firetail, to name at least one villain. But they are far from crediting him as hero or a gray character in the sense of being both good and evil.

[martins#1fan]

Gingivere, ( spelling? ) a gray animal? I always thought he was an orange-ish color......
Then again he's a WILD cat............  strange.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

@M#1fan: Try reading the topic creator's post so you don't post spam.


On owls: They seem to be every interesting species. A good deal of them ate creatures such as lizards or weasels. Just as much cannibals as Gulo the Savage, if better desired.
@Lutra: How much of the series have you read?

[martins#1fan]

Oh darn, I didn't know that's what it was about. Sorry!

[daskar666]

I consider Tugga Bruster from Doomwyte a truly gray character....at first he appeared just as a bad-tempered protagonist but later on he displayed more negative traits.